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 Post subject: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Sun Jul 28, 2013 7:51 am 
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I know a good many LTW followers and supporters who are into, or at least have, AR15's. If they are any indication of the group as a whole, and I'm sure they are, 3/4 of the people reading this have a black rifle or three.

At our Board of Directors meeting, January this year in Las Vegas, the LTW BOD discussed changes and upgrades to the forum, and one was to add an AR15 subforum. Which of us might ramrod it, came the question. Suddenly there were nine sets of beady little eyes (B-O-D little eyes) on me.

Until such time as we make major changes in forum structure, I thought I'd just open a thread on the subject. I know other BOD members have a great deal of user-side experience with them-- Bailey uses one at work, Don used one while serving his country, Stan builds them from time to time and of course makes super-primo AR fodder..... he has also hosted and trained with Pat Rogers..... Jason is into them, and is part of the training staff for Bailey's agency. John Ralston uses them for hunting..... Tony Barnes has done some high-speed training with certain people in certain places that most of us don't get access to, not to mention that he works in close proximity to tons, literally tons, of AR15 parts and accessories. Johns VZ and Harrison-- I have not discussed AR's with them much but I know VZ is into them at some level. As for myself, I got my first one right out of high school and had to hide it from my parents until I got my own house two years later! Since then I have used them in competition, varmint hunting, and over the last thirteen years, it has been my great honor to train and assist in the training of maybe a couple-three thousand police officers in the use of the AR15--- my part in the training being mostly on the mechanical side. I do several armorer classes a year by myself for various groups, but most of the police-only training is with a state government agency which provides all kinds of training to Illinois cops, from gang sign decyphering to recognizing and handling domestic violence to hazmat issues, and everything in between. When it's something AR15 related, I'm part of the staff, along with Patrick Sweeney.

Twenty years ago, as a guy who had a few AR's and shot them a fair amount, I figured I knew a bit about them. I guess I did, but when I started seeing two hundred cops a year shoot a thousand or more rounds each, through many different AR15 variations, each guy having different combos of accessories, magazines, ammo, and widely varying levels of experience, well, that's when my AR15 education really started. I had the good fortune to be pulled into all this by Jeff Chudwin, a long time friend, police chief, competitor and tireless trainer of police in use of force, legal issues, and, well, gunfighting. Without Jeff opening doors for me into the training side of things, and without his encouragement and ideas, I doubt that my AR15-related products would have come into being.

So-- let us start some discussions within this thread and gage the interest. It doesn't have to be uber-tatical discussion, but it can be. It doesn't have to be hunting / politically correct, but it can be. All it does have to be is polite and professional. My hope is to keep it at a certain level and not become a place devoted to answering questions like "help me decide!!!!!!! which one should i buy???????" and yet-- nobody was born knowing everything about the subject and I don't want to pretend that lacking experience and needing advice makes a person stupid, it certainly does not. There are other sites out there, a great many actually...... some seem more "first time" oriented but dang, there is also a lot of bad advice. One that I watch and like is M4carbine.net. I do not at all intend for our little set of lawnchairs in the back yard here to do and be what M4C and other are, but among guys who are passing through LTW anyway and have some interest in black rifles and the like...... lessee what happens.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Mon Jul 29, 2013 1:14 pm 
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Happy to help with what tidbits I've gleaned through the years.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 3:40 pm 
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I was counting on that, Patrick, thank you.

I've become very skeptical in recent years about aftermarket parts and accessories for the AR15. A good many dobn't do much for the user, some do nothing, and some go beyond that to where they do harm, either causing poor reliability, safety issues, or just become something the user has to work around.

If a guy had time to count muzzle devices offered, I'll bet he could come of with at least seventy-five of them. One I actually like is the Noveske KX-3. In short, it's a decent flash hider, but mostly, it acts as a megaphone for the report of the rifle. It sends the lion's share of it downrange, and makes things a little easier on the shooter by taking the peak off the noise. I've been onto these since they came out maybe six years ago since my friends in law enforcement in Illinois were not permitted the use of suppressors-- that's right, even the police couldn't have them. This constipated legislation was telling cops "we don't care if you go deaf". Finally that has changed to some degree, but anyway, I thought the KX3 was worth having for the patrol guy who might need to skid to a halt and go into action-- no time for hearing protection.

KX3 downside: it's bigger in diameter and longer than a regular flash hider, and of course weighs a little more.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Wed Jul 31, 2013 10:18 pm 
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If I can help in any way with my limited expertise please do not hesitate to ask. I am an end user line Steve and have the luxury of choosing the items I wanted on my patrol M4C. RRA lower, LMT upper, EOTech 551, single point sling and tele stock pinned at the third position.

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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:27 pm 
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I lay claim to no special expertise, but am active as a site Admin in some directly-related communities (M4Carbine and Weapon Evolution), so I do have some appreciation of the terrain, and obvious contact with this side of the industry. Would be happy to provide choir loft support as desired, though it could get interesting, in view of the fact that opinions vary so widely as to what constitutes the Good, the Bad and the Ugly within the AR world. Do we wish discuss the merits of custom ARs? Focus on "service grade" variants which tend to predominate in uniformed applications? Ponder various configurations and roles? Consider emerging developments (such as they are)? Explore the merits and woes of alternate chamberings?

The topic is a broad one, to say the least. If you provide a cardinal direction, I'm sure that there are folks here with an interest in the subject matter. Just need to determine how it will be dealt with here, since there are so many other e-watering holes out there catering to the platform. What does the BOD see as the purpose or objective of a dedicated board? Whatever that might be, of course, it would seem to be a fairly straightforward thing to put into motion.

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Last edited by Charles Petrie on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:40 pm 
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Ned Christiansen wrote:
I've become very skeptical in recent years about aftermarket parts and accessories for the AR15. A good many don't do much for the user, some do nothing, and some go beyond that to where they do harm, either causing poor reliability, safety issues, or just become something the user has to work around.


I see parallels here to what has happened in the Glock world. I'm not a Glock shooter, but the sheer volume of aftermarket support for that platform has resulted in a rather staggering array of superfluous -- and useless -- add-ons. Since most are somewhat approachable with a minimal skill set and a common hand tool, you end up with a lot of folks out there compromising solid guns with questionable enhancements. Then again, when was the last time you saw a stock Harley-Davidson, right? Of course, I've got my share of 1911 take-off grip panels, discarded triggers and swapped-out safeties laying around the house, too ... mea culpa. lol

The AR world is likely even worse, and the tendency to kit-out rifles with inferior-quality or totally-unpurposed componentry is pretty widespread, to say the least. Most who are active in serious training and/or service applications use have long since (re-)discovered that less is indeed more, and weight reduction is a beautiful thing. Sling, light, Aimpoint ... you're ready for the 0-300m fight. Of course, a stripped-down flyer doesn't necessarily speak to those who prefer to set up 16-pound war hammers (featuring pretty much every end-item from the SOPMOD poster) for internet glamor shots, but that is really another discussion entirely.

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Stand your ground; don't fire unless fired upon, but if they mean to have a war, let it begin here. -- Captain John Parker, Lexington, 1775.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 8:00 am 
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Thanks guys.... your input will be very welcome.

As to cardinal direction...... how to be exclusive without being elitist, how to encourage relevant, experience-based conversation without shutting out new ideas and legitimate questions? On an as-we-go basis for now. I don't want to take anything away from other established forums-- doubt we could anyway-- I just want a place here on the LTW compound where guys can discuss AR's and such.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:00 am 
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I'm fully supportive of an AR sub-forum but I think there needs to be more attention on the bread and butter. What kickstarted this forum was top rated Pistolsmiths and fans who were fed up with the antics of....a past forum and thought that there could be something better. It was. Many folks came over here and a LOT of talent was put on display. A LOT of great knowledge was shared. But, over the past 1-2 years, some of those original folks have stopped posting. Who wouldn't like to see some of the great things coming off of some of the greatest benches currently working? I know I've ponied up money after seeing work posted here. Same goes for leathersmiths and other sub forums on here. We don't need a sub-forum so much as we need participation from some of those wonderfully talented people who create masterpieces.
Sorry if I've stepped on toes but I have had this forum as one of my go-to favorites and despite being overseas in locations where internet was often limited I tried to check in pretty regularly over the years. Now it goes days with no one posting. I find myself posting a reply just to see a thread updated and I've gotten the same feeling from other regulars I've seen post. Of late I considered replacing LTW with another on my go-to list, I think we all have other interests which can draw attention when there is inattention.
Sorry to be a downer. Intent was meant as constructive.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:29 pm 
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I'm all for it, think I might have an AR hiding in my safe somewhere 8) ... WY just green lighted 223/5.56 (and suppressors :twisted: ) for hunting so considering running a quiet one for deer season this year. I also have a little time behind the trigger training with one. So any direction it goes I'm interested.

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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 6:51 am 
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A10ACN, what can I say other than, you ain't wrong. I think this or any forum will have ups and downs in terms of activity but yes, there has been a definite downward trend. One factor too, I believe, is simply that some of us are so busy with work in the shop that we can't get to the computer-- like the site itself, everyone's shop schedule is up and down and right now we're in a harmonic where several are up so posting is down. Which yeah, one could perhaps apply the "e" word to that. We need to see about upping the volume.

BTW, got any M4-in-Kenya anecdotes or pics?


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 11:01 am 
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Not Kenya, but helped a friend research these for some guys in Somalia while there.

http://www.gilboa-rifle.com/Gilboa-Firearms/M-43/

I was unfamiliar with the company, much less the rifles. I'm intrigued. Curious as to the mags and the reliability, though.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:48 pm 
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Now that's interesting...... hm. So they also make an AR-ish, um, double rifle...?

AR's in 7.62X39 are generally said to not work well but this looks like a ground-up redesign-- plenty of Stoner DNA but not the standard format adapted to the caliber.

With regards to getting back to what makes LTW great, I certainly will but my summers are a time of low 1911 output, with a good many classes going on. I am working on a few things but progress is slow until "training season" tapers off. Thanks for the interesting link!


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:29 pm 
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I think the near future will be very interesting in the AR-verse. We're starting to see the first signs that the over-heated market is headed for a correction. I've seen "commodity" ARs listed for under $800.

A lot of the makers weren't paying attention to the "phantom" orders from the previous spike. That is, a gun shop places orders for all the ARs they think they can sell, with all the distributors. And when they get enough, they cancel the (planned) extra orders.

So we'll be seeing a lot of ARs for sale, some from distributors blowing them out to avoid carrying inventory, and some from people who "don't need" one anymore, and are miserable about selling their unfired "two thousand dollar" AR for $750.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 5:45 am 
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The market is definitely in transition. Now that we're seeing Colt 6920s showing up at places like Wal-Mart for less than $1,100, the Stag/DPMS/Bushmaster rifles will invariably be pushed back to their normal (pre-frenzy) pricing structures, as well. I suspect more than a few speculative/panic buyers will take a bath in the process, but such is the nature of the game.

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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Thu Aug 08, 2013 8:38 pm 
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If it ever seems to LTW readers that Patrick Sweeney and I are acquainted, well......

Image

That's us earlier today, at the office-- our little piece of Army base, a plywood bench where we keep the guns running for students. The police in Illinois have only just recently succeeded in getting some legislation through where they can have suppressors for special applications (that's right, even the police could not have them thanks to silly politics). Many departments are availing themselves of the advantages of having carbines that don't damage or destroy their hearing. In these classes we have a unique opportunity to expose students to the idea, show them the advantages, and other considerations. With the participation of a manufacturer we are able to have several suppressors to evaluate and pass around. Plus we are finally starting to get a few students showing up with their own department-owned units.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Tue Aug 13, 2013 8:41 pm 
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Before you guys start gushing over how much fun it looks like (well, it is, really) the bench is new.

What we had before were a few planks, and we pretty much had to work in our laps, or take turns hand-pressing a rifle in place, acting as impromptu vises.

The plywood bench is luxury. But, the chance to do runs on a computer-controlled, 300 meter range, oh, that was worth the roughing it.

And we're learning fast about suppressors.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:16 pm 
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A picture like that could be tacked to the wall in a barn. It would scare the rats away... :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Thu Aug 15, 2013 9:04 pm 
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Well, ya know..... you might just be right. We never see rats around-- guess they're afraid of us!


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 11:34 am 
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Ned,

I have to agree with you on the Noveski muzzle device. I used on on a 10.5 inch barrel for three trips to the desert and it's a great device. People standing to your left and right won't like it too much though and at night the flash is pretty epic. I had very few malfunctions with this set up, the barrel was not a pistol set up, carbine length gas port. My understanding is that the Noveski reduces pressure. All in all it made for a very nice handling little carbine.

Matt


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Wed Feb 12, 2014 4:32 pm 
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I have tested them for flash and had different results, but always with a 16" barrel. In my testing it seemed like inside a downrange 90 degree cone you get a stunning noise. From the 180 and behind it really takes the peak off the noise!


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Fri Mar 28, 2014 10:05 pm 
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Image

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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Sun Mar 30, 2014 6:30 am 
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Well, yeah......


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2014 10:47 am 
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As I mentioned a year ago (has it been that long?) the market has definitely cooled.

There are ARs out there for rock-bottom prices, so if you want to add a couple to the rifle rack, now's the time.

Ammo prices are inching down, part of the same dynamic.

One detail i just worked out for one of my publications is the test of heavy (75 & 77 grain) bullets in 1/9 twist barrels.

Yes, they shot accurately, as Ned and I have found, thwacking little plastic men out to 300 meters.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2014 10:22 am 
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Well I've found "it depends", like some 1/9's will shoot 75/77's OK, others won't. But I'm guessing I don't have as broad a sampling as you do Patrick. Without spoiling what is to be published, can you say that 1/9 always works with these or were there some variances?

And, when this comes out I'd like to know when and where I might pick it up.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:06 am 
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This will be in the upcoming AR-15 G&A special, now a quarterly I think.

I tested various high-end 75 & 77 grains factory loads in three different, but accurate, rifles.

It would be a full-time job testing more than a small sample, but the worst still did just over 1 MOA. but then, that one is a 1-MOA at best barrel with anything.

None of the bullet holes were oblong.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:03 am 
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Yeah I've found 75's and 77's in a 9 twist never actually yaw, they sometimes just aren't as accurate as say 69 SMK's in the same barrel, where in an 8 twist barrel they will do very well. But again-- very small sample.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2014 12:48 pm 
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I did it to dis-prove the "sub-critical nucleer detonation" warnings that you can see all over several AR forums.

You'd think, given some people opinions, that using 75 & 77 grain bullets in a 1/9 barrel is akin to child abuse.


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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 3:39 am 
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I've made some design changes to the MOACKS Plain, this is the version that does just the staking of the carrier key and does not counter-stake the carrier key screws. The tool uses socket head cap screws, precisely ground to length and profiled, then flame-hardened on the ends, to make the stakes. Upgrades consists of going from 10-32 screws to 1/4-28, and angling the screws. This reduces the chance of the staking process causing distortion to the body of the key at its width. Honestly I've never had a complaint about that but it's always bugged me that sometimes it happens. This is because the narrower part at the top of the key has some pretty wide-open tolerances. This narrow part is there expressly for the purpose of "absorbing" the staking, in other words, to ensure that no part of the staking goes wider than the body of the key..... with the old design it does happen sometimes and it's covered in the instructions: "file it off". This should be much less necessary with the new design, but still to be watched for.

Gage change-- actually nothing to the gage, but to the handle. I've had a few iterations of the handle over the years, always trying to find an easier (YES, I mean "cheaper") way to make it, to keep from having to pass on increased costs. Well, I finally found a way to make it a little more expensive, but with, I think, a lot of value added. The handle is now larger in diameter, and like with my .223-to-5.56 reamers, offers self-storage of the gage. Remove the cap, drop the gage out, screw it to the handle, and start gagin'. Keeps you from losing or dinging up the gage-- although it is hardened and pretty ding-proof.

I've gone to lengths over the years to not raise prices-- for a lot of reasons, but one is simply that it's a pain in the butt to do so. But the time has come on these two products to do so, so:

MOACKS Plain, formerly $75, now $85 with upgraded screws and relocating of same.

.223 or 5.56? gage, formerly $44, now $50 with self-store handle.

As before most things "must" go Priority Mail at $10, that's $10 for one thing or a bunch of things ordered together. I will ship the gage though, First Class for $5.

Descriptions at http://www.m-guns.com/tools.php

I think it's been seven years since I changed the price of anything!

The new MOACKS Plain with angled, larger staking screws:
Image

New gage handle:
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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Thu Apr 30, 2015 9:34 am 
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Your gauge is one of the handiest tools in the shop, and I've lost count of how many gas keys I've staked with my MOACKS. Great stuff Ned, and yet you keep proving it!

Mark

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 Post subject: Re: AR-Fifteenery
PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 2:48 pm 
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I am working on my 3rd and 4th AR build using Palmetto State Armory's stainless 1/8 kits.

All told after shipping, I will have less than $600 in the rifles with mags slings furniture and a TruGlo red dot.

This is a great hobby!

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