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 Post subject: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 3:06 pm 
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I have been a patron of the smith's represented here for over 5 years. I've bought auction tickets to every charity gun and I have personally met each of the gunsmiths and many of the other forum members. I don't share my thoughts just for the heck of seeing my posts count go up. I'm disappointed that several dealers have been aloud to take over the For Sale Forum while other loyal members have suddenly been blocked because they don't have 45 posts on the site. I guess I should have been posting "nice gun" or "amen" from the start. I fail to see how these changes have done anything but prevent us from seeing guns from new sources. One of my very first posts was to sell a Devel M39 for a friends widow. Had the ban been in place then, the forum members would have missed out on a rare and collectible gun. Just because someone doesn't post a lot here, doesn't mean we should be blocking the items they have for sale. Actions are louder than words and this action is nothing more than censorship by an established entity to maintain control of the "status quo". There was and still is a better way to solve the problem of the site getting flooded with guns for sale that should be posted on Gunbroker or some other place.

I fail to see how ads for surplus PSP's and AR15 lowers qualify for this section. It is a weak argument that either one of these presents a suitable platform for a future custom build. However, posts like this are now being placed by forum regulars. Also, guns that are pre-ordered by a dealer whose only intention is to resale the custom gun on this site for a profit hardly meets the spirit of the forum. If the gun is spec'd by someone who never intends to keep it, how can you consider this a custom gun? The rules for posting in this forum now stand to benefit the "profitier" not the distinguished custom gun collector. I'm sure my views will be unpopular. However, I call it as I see it.

One more thing, "Louder than Words" implies that the important things are represented by actions, not words. Buying tickets for the charity guns, sending guns out to be personalized and customized, and spreading the word across the industry about the good things done by this organization are all actions. Getting up to 45 postings, just words. Think about it.

I hope you can stomach the constructive criticism.


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:05 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:50 pm
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Tim Dowdle wrote:
I have been a patron of the smith's represented here for over 5 years. I've bought auction tickets to every charity gun and I have personally met each of the gunsmiths and many of the other forum members. I don't share my thoughts just for the heck of seeing my posts count go up. I'm disappointed that several dealers have been aloud to take over the For Sale Forum while other loyal members have suddenly been blocked because they don't have 45 posts on the site. I guess I should have been posting "nice gun" or "amen" from the start. I fail to see how these changes have done anything but prevent us from seeing guns from new sources. One of my very first posts was to sell a Devel M39 for a friends widow. Had the ban been in place then, the forum members would have missed out on a rare and collectible gun. Just because someone doesn't post a lot here, doesn't mean we should be blocking the items they have for sale. Actions are louder than words and this action is nothing more than censorship by an established entity to maintain control of the "status quo". There was and still is a better way to solve the problem of the site getting flooded with guns for sale that should be posted on Gunbroker or some other place.

I fail to see how ads for surplus PSP's and AR15 lowers qualify for this section. It is a weak argument that either one of these presents a suitable platform for a future custom build. However, posts like this are now being placed by forum regulars. Also, guns that are pre-ordered by a dealer whose only intention is to resale the custom gun on this site for a profit hardly meets the spirit of the forum. If the gun is spec'd by someone who never intends to keep it, how can you consider this a custom gun? The rules for posting in this forum now stand to benefit the "profitier" not the distinguished custom gun collector. I'm sure my views will be unpopular. However, I call it as I see it.

.


If you call the way you see it why not email or PM the two/three Moderators you allude to before pontificating in this soapbox post.

I see a real mix in the for sale forum and not Alaska Gun and P-T Partners or RandG taking over...and having dealt with Gary and Terry they are friendly, fair, good guys...I am sure Alaska Gun is no different.

Your views are not "unpopular", they are unwarranted.

I am pretty sure the majority of people here find your post in poor taste.

Words have meaning...if I wrote what you wrote I would apologize to the gentleman that moderate the for sale forum

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My rights are denied by Those least qualified
Everything's backwards In Americana


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 6:45 am 
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I have contacted Jason about this very issue before posting about it. I don't expect a change in the policy, only a discussion. I didn't set out to offend any of the moderators, only to call attention to how this forum has changed over time and what I believe is a contradiction that has arisen since the site and the charitable activities were launched. I highly doubt that I have hurt any of the moderators feelings. If I have, I sincerely apologize. However, I stand by my statements that the current policy is preventing us from seeing guns what might come from the quiet collector who doesn't have 45 posts.

By nature, firearms people tend to be more "conservative". By definition, a conservative person will tend to quietly collect their treasures without posting on internet forums until they might be considering their sale. Firearms dealers, on the other hand have to keep their posts and presence front and center if they hope to sell enough guns to make a living. Its not good or bad, its just reality.


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 8:00 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 3:17 pm
Posts: 958
Tim,

Jason may have explained that there are several reasons for this policy. I agree that one of your first posts allowed someone to pick up a collectible gun they might not have seen elsewhere. Without blowing sunshine up your rear end, let me pay you a compliment - you are a fine and honorable gentleman. That said, everyone who has used the for sale forum in the past is not similarly ethically burdened. You have not seen the deleted posts, listened to the complaints of members who were cheated or abused, nor been asked to vouch for unfamiliar sellers. We had smiths trying to sell components tied to future work, and half-finished guns. We got a lot more complaints before we changed the posting requirements.

I don't feel that establishing ones' self as a contributing member is too much to ask. As far as the 'dealers' taking over the for sale forum, be advised that they did not take over anything. Terry, Bill, and Brian were asked by site admin to oversee the forum in the interest of making life a little less complicated for the full time smiths, who really don't have the time to moderate every aspect of the board. It's a job, and they do it well.

I guess I'm missing the point on the "spec" guns posted by the dealers. I've been working with Bill and Terry for years. They put guns in line just like you would. They wait just like you would, and they get a bill, just like everyone else. The fact that they specify the way their guns are built means that they are taking a big chance - what if no one likes that gun? That's the business they're in, and I don't envy their investment in time and money as compared to earnings on these guns. If the dealers don't offer these guns for sale, who would? A custom gun resold by an individual owner is still built to someone else's set of specifications. The fact is that all the smiths here have a finite production potential. I know how many pieces I'll put through this year. There are only so many slots for sale on my calendar, and the dealers step up over a year in advance and commit their finances to buy this time. I fail to see the down side of them using this venue to offer these works for sale. Like the Devel you sold, they are available customs that are evidently of interest to the membership.

Where the PSP's and AR bits are concerned, I'll admit they're not of much interest to me personally but the folks offering them are contributing, participating members, and I will honor their privilege to post them here. Every gun can't be a custom, but every gun buyer has different tastes. The for sale forum was never set up as a 'High-end custom guns only" board - if that was the case, people would complain that we were snobs :)

I'm disappointed that you voiced your disapproval with the policy with a post count of 40+. I know you're not the type to throw up a few "me too" posts, and I respect that. You simply could have asked to have for sale forum posting privileges advanced to you based on your prior participation, rather than the course presented here.

BTW, The forum board is here for the enjoyment of the members. The operation of the for sale forum was never intended to be a representation of the mission or the charitable actions of LTW. Connecting the two is not just an unfortunate play on words, it's innappropriate and inflammatory. Our collective efforts, along with those of our members and the fine folks who contributed and administered the fundraising efforts have helped these charites raise approximately $40K this year. We must be doing something right.

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480-804-1911

Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.

TR


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 6:06 am 
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Ted,

Thanks for the response. I was merely looking for some reason that I just couldn't see for the policy changes. I also didn't mean the aggressive intrepation of "take over" by the dealers as moderators. Since the bad posts get deleted, I've never seen any of the negative activity you refer to. It is unfortunate that people seem to take advantage of good things. I don't have anything against spec guns either. They are a good way of letting the backed up gunsmiths like yourself work without waiting on every owner to change his mind 4 or 5 times in the early days of a build. At least the spec guns are firm orders that should go through with little or no interruption. My point was to compare the number of spec guns now on the site to the very low number of customs by past smiths like Swenson or Beihert. I used to see these guns become available from new members who were looking to put their treasures into the hands of fellow collectors. I work with a lot of discriminating collectors and when it comes to selling their treasures, they often don't like a middle man, or putting up a lot of posts. They just don't have the time or the inclination to make their thoughts on everything public knowledge. They also won't bother to post in order to tell you that you did another great job of checkering of gun, or some other detail.

In the end, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I only wanted a discussion about the plus's and minus's of the current policy. I do have guns to offer on this site, but as you noted, I'm close enough to get the 45 posts without much trouble. I posted this to try and find some answers. It is a discussion formum, afterall. Ted, you have provided the discussion I was looking for and I do truly appreciate that THE busiest custom gun smith in this country took the time to weigh in and set the record straight. I would like to see more of that. Ted Yost, Ned, C.T. Brian, and all of the other hard working craftsmen that build these wonderful peices of work and then give them up for charity have the attention of thousands of good firearms enthusiasts. You have a rare opportunity to call attention and have discussions on important topics, and I believe some of that has gotten overlooked. It's just my opinion, but I wanted to see if anyone else wanted to discuss it. I'm glad you did. This has always been one of my favorite sites and I appreciate the hard work of the moderators. I was unaware that people have been abusing the privelages offered here and wish a higher standard of ethics could be maintained by our fellow shooters, gunsmiths, and dealers. Thanks for setting some of the record straight.


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 8:45 am 
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Tim Dowdle wrote:
... Thanks for setting some of the record straight.


Wow Tim kind of a back handed compliment don’t you think. :roll:

Call me crazy but this would have certainly been better addressed by first email or Pm or even calling me... if we’ve spoke once about this I’m sure you remember how to contact me. I know you’ve got our phone number and I know we’ve spoken before so I can’t imagine you not knowing you could do so again... it likely would have been easy enough and probably easier in the long run. If then you didn’t get the answers you were looking for then it may have been prudent to open it up to a full-forum discussion... but you didn’t so I guess it’s here.

As Ted mentioned, and by your own admission, you don’t see what goes on here behind the scenes and I’ve got to say that simply by that standard I can’t figure why you would have been so bold to essentially call us out as to our decision making with regards to the Louder Than Words forum.

In the beginning we wondered whether or not we should have a “for sale” section but collectively we decided to let it roll unobstructed in the hopes that, by the inherent nature of this forum and its intent, it would essentially moderate itself. That didn’t quite happen and eventually we became inundated with new "users" simply spamming the board with their wares as opposed to our original intent of having a nice, clean, easy to use lounge for the custom gun enthusiasts with all the inherent privileges. So in the end some restrictions had to be implemented simply to keep this place the clean and orderly forum we envisioned way back when. Seems easy and simple enough to understand... at least from my seat. Other forums have similar standards that have to be met before one is allowed to post in the “for sale” section. Did you bother posting something similar on those boards?


Tim Dowdle wrote:
...this action is nothing more than censorship by an established entity to maintain control of the "status quo".


Really... censorship? Do you actually believe that or did it just sound good when you wrote it? And do you still believe it and if not, once again, would it not have been easier to call, email, or send me a PM asking for clarification or voice your apparently continued dissatisfaction? Don’t misunderstand me, in the end I don’t really mind you posting this because now others too may better understand that there is actually some thought and reason behind our decision making. But, for you to be so bold to accuse us of censorship, question the intent and legitimacy of the sellers and moderators of the “for sale” section, or to further question our intent with regards to the spirit of the forum is outright unwarranted and far beneath the level of character you have shown in the past. I for one am surprised at you.

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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:16 pm 
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Tim Dowdle wrote:
One more thing, "Louder than Words" implies that the important things are represented by actions, not words. Buying tickets for the charity guns, sending guns out to be personalized and customized, and spreading the word across the industry about the good things done by this organization are all actions. Getting up to 45 postings, just words. Think about it.

I hope you can stomach the constructive criticism.



I really have no say in this, but sometimes I just cannot keep my mouth shut. It seems "NO GOOD DEED GOES UNPUNISHED fits this thread perfectly! For all the LTW gunsmiths, holstermakers, parts manufacturers, supporters etc. do for the benefit of their fellow human beings, it boggles the mind that such a petty argument could possibly be raised on this board. Sometimes, one has to look at the whole and not the parts. I, for one would be ashamed to raise any issue in the open forum.

Al Shear

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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:53 pm 
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Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 11:13 am
Posts: 55
Gentlemen,

As I stated, I didn't intend to take a swipe at anyone's integrity. If my words came across that way, I have already apologized, but I offer it again. To answer Jason's question, no I don't bother with the hundreds of other sites that require 10,20,30, or 45 posts before you can sell. Yes, I did speak with Jason about this when I called to put another Hi Power in the line about 2 months ago. It was a brief question and answer, but he didn't mention that the site has been spammed. I check the site a couple of times a week and I had not noticed any spam type adds for junk. I see now that it is because the moderators are busting their butts to keep the sight clean.

I agree the censorship comment was too strong with regards to this site. This site has always been miles above any other firearm related forum. It was meant to invoke contrast and comparison between this site and other sites that have the same policies, but a different caliber of sponors and members.

Quote:
Don’t misunderstand me, in the end I don’t really mind you posting this because now others too may better understand that there is actually some thought and reason behind our decision making.
Quote:


As Jason states above, having a discussion about this is exactly the point. If the only content of the site is tons of people patting each other on the back, the strength of the message is diminished. I had no idea that Jason, Ted or anyone else would take this as a personal attack. I have sent dozens of customers to the founders of this site and even some of the knife and accessory manufacturers that are sattelite associates. I'm a supporter in many ways. I didn't write any of this as an attack, yet several have fired back with emotions in play. If this post is THAT imflamatory, delete it or ignore it.


Last edited by Tim Dowdle on Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 10:05 pm 
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Tim...One more post and you're in! 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 4:34 am 
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Joined: Fri Oct 29, 2004 12:50 pm
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Amen!!!! (could'nt resist :lol: )

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My rights are denied by Those least qualified
Everything's backwards In Americana


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 6:44 am 
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That wasn't the point, but I guess I'll take it. As I said, the point was it used to be easier for all of us to SEE guns for sale by NEW people. I have plenty of avenues for selling my own guns. I'm concerned with buying, not selling.

Oh well, Happy 45!


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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 9:51 am 
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Quote:
I hope you can stomach the constructive criticism.


That's funny. For this to follow a post like that is like walking into a bar punching somebody in the face and as you are about to get your head caved in asking the guy why he is pissed?

That was a gem Tim, you gotta have more.

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"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
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 Post subject: Re: Firearms for sale
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 11:17 am 
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Steve,

You are way to big for me to think about punching you in the face. However, that was a soft shot compared to the criticism that could be aimed at other boards. I would think that anyone who works with the public would have to have a thick skin. I do. The best you can do is all you can do. Still, that won't be enough for some customers.

I think this post has about run out of life? Don't you?


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