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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:15 am 
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I've just had another, rare for me, opportunity to get a gun back in with a known and documented round count, 23K in this case. This was sent back for some new sights and to have a couple extractors fitted.

This is on a Caspian Recon frame and slide, stainless..... everything that could be stainless, was, including the original extractors, of which I fitted two as per usual.

The owner, let's call him Rod, is obviously a high-volume shooter. He's a cop in the Chicago area and one of the guys it has been my great pleasure to meet, shoot with, and become friends with. I've met about 1,000 Rods in the last 5-6 years and I am truly impressed by how they are, with very, very few exceptions, physically and mentally fit, and serious about making life hard for bad guys. More importantly I think, they are universally sensitive to citizens' rights, safety, and peace of mind. This particular guy is part of the creme de la creme in terms of mindset, dedication, fitness and ability. Let's just talk shooting here, he can give just about anyone a run for their money, and has shown it in several high-end police and SWAT competitions around the country as well as in every day training. A hunter and trapper as a kid (not that long ago), he was brought up around guns, including 1911's. OK, 'nuff about Rod.

To my surprise he called the other day and said he'd broken an extractor. I asked him if he'd lost the spare and he said "yeah, about 12,000 rounds ago. It broke". And the one he'd just broken? Not the spare. It was actually his third extractor on this gun, one that he'd fitted himself.

I have another friend in the same area (geographically and professionally, and may I say, not only in the same category as Rod, but one of the few guys that can beat him) who has broken no less than eight extractors in the last, I dunno, 5-6 years. Various brands, some fitted by me, some by him, some unknown, some factory. I'll refer to him as J.X.


What's going on? I consider both guys to be anomolies, but admittedly I am not in a position to observe large numbers of 1911's going through mass quantities of ammo. Both guys are real, true 1911isti, who know what to do and what not to do. I mean, I can assure you that neither sits in front of the TV dropping the slide on a chambered round over and over. Since Speer seems to have the pistol duty and training ammo market sewn-up in the Chicago area, both guys are using Lawman 230 FMJ for training, and 200 or 230 Gold Dots of duty and training. Good ammo, no problems there.

I believe that what damages an extractor is the stress of ejection (as opposed to Bubba-loading or something like that). Guess that sounds so simple as to be dumb, but the act of ejection is putting a rather sudden impact on things and making the extractor move somewhat out of the way of things, via a force exerted from a direction that is not mechanically advantageous. Kinda like moving a car by pushing it sideways instead of forward or backward. Why does it happen so some extractors sooner, some later, and some, seemingly, never? A lot of variables there of course, and something I'm doing what you could call an ongoing study of, but I think the stress on the extractor can be reduced by shaping it a certain way. On the other hand, I have had them break with this shape on them, so maybe I'm not there yet. Are some extractors just bad? I'm sure bad ones get through-- corners that are too sharp, dimensions that are off or don't jive well with slide dimensions, heat treat that's not optimal. Assuming, of course that the material selection was right. The extractors supplied with Rod's gun were both Caspian (the only stainless ones available at the time), but I don't feel this is about them being Caspian or stainless.

Back to the rest of the gun. The Kart barrel and its fit to the slide are holding up phenominally. I expected to see a lot more wear and grooving in the leade but there's not. I'da looked at the inside of the barrel and guessed 3-4000 rounds had been through it. It still groups very well according to Rod. The ignition parts were some of Dane Burns' stuff and are holding up great. The finish..... not holding up, but I would not have expected it to with this guy. It is a chrome sulphide, a "bluing" of stainless, so it really does not wear much better than bluing on carbon steel. Rod does not baby his guns, but he does maintain them meticulously. You can see that the Heinie rear has taken some hard knocks and the finish is largely worn off, but as Rod says, "This gun never gets a chance to rust", meaning, he's taking care of it (after shooting and beating the hell out of it!).

The reason for the sight change is not the scratches, dents, and worn finish. The trend of rackable rear sights is in resurgence, and Rod wants them. He is the "shield driver" for a multi-departmental SWAT team, and as such, he is armed only with a handgun and has a genuine need to be able to do one-handed manipulations. In particular, he wants to be able to quickly rack the slide on the side of the shield. This gun will wind up with a setup just like what I recently did to Rod's Springfield Operator:
Image
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The slide is lowered on top, from the ejection port back to the front of the rear sight. The forward part of the rear sight is likewise lowered, to make for a higher, more abrupt front surface to catch on the shield's edge. In addition, I've serrated the front. The one pictured, and the one I'll be doing on Rod's Caspian, are YoBo sights that have been modified.

The resurgence of the rackable rear sight is coming from several quarters. I think Chuck Rogers was one of the earliest proponents, at least in this "cycle"........ I think the idea itself is as old as the idea of carrying a 1911 on horseback in place of a cavalry saber. One reason my Chicago-area guys are wanting them lately is that there's a new trainer in the area, Henk (that's how it's spelled) Iverson from South Africa. I won't get long winded about him but suffice it to say you don't do 23 years in SA as a cop and soldier without knowing a few things about fighting and surviving a fight (SA has a 25,000-man national police force and they lose about 1500 a year in line-of-duty deaths). I got to spend some time with him this summer and he is really passionate about training cops and soldiers in techniques that he has seen work.
http://www.striketactical.com

Here are a few pics of the Caspian:
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Image
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Sorry about the blue tint, gotta check those camera settings.

That's the back of Rod's card on the table.

The MSH is aluminum, made from scratch by me. Here again we can see that black anodizing really holds up well! This is a very special MSH, we wanted to use aluminum for the light weight to try and offset the weight of the rail on the dustcover (see also the lightening cuts inside the rail). But, I was afraid that Rod's shooting habit would quickly make a mess out of the magwell if the back part was aluminum, so I made a stainless insert to take the banging and scraping of fast reloads.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:08 am 
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Wow, thanks for sharing this information. Very interesting. Particularly more so since I'm in Chicago. :-)

I had no idea that Chicago LEO's even SWAT were allowed to use 1911's but it's great to hear!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 11:16 am 
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I don't know if it's more so in that area, but a lot of Chicago-area coppers carry them. Some Departments issue them, others allow them if you qual with them. I like to think it's residual attitude from the 20's and 30's. A surprising number of those Departments also have Thompsons, although they are just "there", they are not used.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 12:07 pm 
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Good stuff sir! We need more tech info.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 2:51 pm 
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Very good. I like these "where are they now" stories. Very informative.

Interesting point about the stress on extractors being worse at ejection. I suppose it must be pretty bad then.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:42 pm 
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I love to see threads like this. Very informative!


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 8:36 pm 
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Quote:
I believe that what damages an extractor is the stress of ejection (as opposed to Bubba-loading or something like that)... but the act of ejection is putting a rather sudden impact on things and making the extractor move somewhat out of the way of things, via a force exerted from a direction that is not mechanically advantageous.
Ned: not to steer this post away from intended direction, but do you think that properly designed and executed external extractor could be a solution for that?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:07 pm 
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I think 1911 extractors break when they "run out of room" to flex.
Some extractors are so tight in the tunnel that I think they just beat themselves to death.

I would like to see a thread on this subject.

GI guns from WW2 rarely broke extractors.
(they were forged and had no sharp edges!)

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:24 pm 
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Nice work Ned, really like those sights on the first operator sure the second one will work better for that job.

Alex.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 10:33 pm 
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YK, it seems like either type should experience the same stresses.... I can tell you that what I believe is the only pistol extractor I've broken personally, was on a Glock.

Anthony, for sure they get stressed more if there's a bunch of crud behind them. Is that a sure thing that they were forged on the old military guns? It does seem like that'd be a plus.

Alex, I'll soon be finishing a pretty elaborate stainless 1911 with some made-from-scratch sights that have a pretty radical racking surface. Will get pics up when it gets back from Tungsten DLC.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:35 am 
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Ned,

I have really admired the thinking that goes into all of your work. These pics just confirm my earlier suspicions. Thanks for showing us your work.

Just a question out of curiousity though. What, if any, is the logic behind only flattening the Operator's slide only from the breech back? I've never seen that done, and just wonder about the thinking that went into that choice.

Just want to pick the mind of the master :D


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:49 am 
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Just as kind of a lead-in to the racking abutment of the rear sight, to make sure a guy gets it engaged on the first try.

Again, I have no claim on the idea of rackable sights. To be honest it's one of those things I used to sort of mentally roll my eyes at. I've done a few by request in the past, but getting more exposure to guns in the police context in recent years, and discussing things with new friend Henk this summer, I've been playing around with ideas to make them more positive.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:02 am 
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Quote:
Anthony, for sure they get stressed more if there's a bunch of crud behind them. Is that a sure thing that they were forged on the old military guns? It does seem like that'd be a plus.
Most all the small parts on USGI military spec 1911's were forged with special forging dies. This included slide stops, hammers, thumb safeties, extractors, ejectors, fpin stops, mainspring housing, and grip safety.

This was obviously cheaper and faster at the time, but the net benefit was also that these old parts were ridiculously tough. In the case of the extractor, the forging process also created a lack of sharp edges. I have a few original GI extractors and they even appear "pre tuned"-the hook is pre shaped and radiused, the ramp is beveled, and they work great in every gun I have thrown one in.

My theory on broken extractors is pretty simple. Claws break if they are too hard or too thin or hit the back of the barrel. I have broken a few claws-oddly, all on Les Baer guns!

Tension disappears quick and complete hooks can break if the extractor runs out of room in the tunnel and is unable to flex. This usually happens when extremely dirty or too tight in the tunnel or when repeatedly snapped over a round in the chamber.

Once while officiating at an IDPA match, an older gentleman showed up with a GI NM gun converted to a carry gun. When he came up to the line he dropped a round in the chamber, dropped the slide on top and proceeded to load a full magazine in the butt. After the string I chastised him for "stressing" his extractor-he kind of looked at me quizzickly and after I inspected his pistol he told me that he had been shooting and loading the gun in that fashion, for thousands of rounds for nearly 30 years! and countless thousands of rounds. The extractor looked like new. The "doughnut" were ground off when it built and the extractor flexed along its entire length. As the "doughnut" were missing, the extractor had a lot of room to flex when presented with his chamber loading technique, I guess.

Food for thought!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:17 am 
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Quote:
... The "doughnut" were ground off when it built and the extractor flexed along its entire length. As the "doughnut" were missing, the extractor had a lot of room to flex when presented with his chamber loading technique, I guess. ..
We used to routinely grind/polish off the doughnuts in the 70s/early 80s. Not sure who birthed that idea, but I never saw one break. I've still got an old S70 with one of those in it.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:17 am 
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Tasty food, Anthony!

I know at least one 'smith who used to grind off the donut for that reason. Certainly seems logical.

You guys may recall an experiment I did where I set up an extractor in a cut-off slide and made a little gizmo to go in my mill spindle that, each revolution, would come around and "snap" the extractor, simulating a "Bubba load". I turned it on at 750 RPM and walked off for 16 minutes. Examining the extractor after the test, there were not changes dimensionally or in terms of tension-- to my surprise.

Now, the extractor in a Thompson looks a lot like a 1911 extractor and by design, snaps over each round fed. But as the Tommy gun's bolt face is completely ringed, tensions would not be critical since a case can't fall out. Plus, one could say that the Tommy gun's extractor is not too critical since, being straight blowback (M1 and M1A1 anyway), it would function just fine without it.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:41 am 
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Is there any downside to removing the "doughnut"? Why is the practice not more commonplace today?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:47 am 
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I believe this center bump is known as a 'dognut'.
I've eaten PLENTY of doughnuts in my day, and nottaone looked like that.
:D

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:15 am 
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I've always thought ofit as "the rat", like a snake that swallowed one.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:54 pm 
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Quote:
I believe this center bump is known as a 'dognut'.
I've eaten PLENTY of doughnuts in my day, and nottaone looked like that.


It doesn't look anything like my dogs nuts either! :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 1:12 pm 
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Great leaning opertunities. Thanks Ned!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 2:58 pm 
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great thread, thanks for the info ned-cameron


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 Post subject: Ejector
PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 12:29 pm 
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It seems like the amount of vertical angle/chamfer on the ejector, or lack thereof, may affect how much stress is put on the extractor hook. I might be off base here, but having no vertical chamfer on the face of the ejector should keep more the extractor hook in contact with the cartridge rim for a longer period of time than an ejector face that has a chamfer on it. Having a chamfer would tend to leave only the extractor tip in contact with the cartridge rim.

On another note, in his book '45 Auto - Custom Touches,' R.D. Nye advocates filing off the "lumps" on the extractor. He doesn't give any reasoning, however.

There was a picture over on the other 1911 forum a couple months ago of EGW's new extractor. It will be interesting to see how it works out. Even still, it would be nice to see someone produce a forged spring steel etractor in 2006, if only to experiment with.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 13, 2006 9:52 am 
.38 Super/9mm extractors only have half a dognut. The missing half is on the inside so there is a secret message there somewhere.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:44 pm 
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Ned,

A couple of years ago, when my firm was just starting up, I had much more spare time. One of the things I did in my spare time was draw an extractor in SolidWorks, then model it in Comsol (a 3-D modeling software package we use for equipment design/simulation). At full deflection (as in snapping over a rim) or greatest tension (a bit of assumption in this one), the strain-stress in the extractor is no where near the 90% fatigue limit of the steel. I did this to learn the software and satisfy my curiosity. I will see if I can find the model and do a screen shot if anyone is interested. A flawless (clean, no residual surface tension, ect) part should last forever (1*10^6 cycles is the fatigue limit for most steels).

If someone were to force an opinion, I would say there was an inclusion (bit of "dirt") in the steel as a result of initial rolling or heat treating. This is actually very common with some foundries. This is also why re-melt or vacum melt steels were developed. Carbon steels are more tolerant than stainless typically. In all honesty, a part with as much machining and heat treating as an extractor, especially at $20 to $30 is bound to have ocassional flaws. The examples you mentioned took so long because they were small flaws.

Food for thought.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 5:10 am 
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Thanks for the tech angle, Bill.

There is something new coming out extractor-wise (not mine). I'll make sure LTW-isti get an early look (if I'm given one).

Rod's gun helped his team get 4th in the World SWAT Competition. He also did well at the National Patrol Rifle Competition and Conference (Although this year I believe there was a total of two pistol shots...!).

He must be beyond 30K at this point-- I'll ask him when next we talk.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 22, 2008 8:54 am 
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Mr. Christiansen, nothing nicer than a beauty of safe queen proportions getting used. Still waiting on this extractor info....

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:23 am 
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I own a company that does cryogenic treatment of tool steels; more specifically I treat manufacturing tooling, specifically molds, dies, and other high wear items. As is the nature of my business I've also done a considerable amount of motorsports and firearms related processing... I shoot A LOT, but can only think of two pistols I own that have had more than 30k rounds fired through them; my SIG 220 and my old Wilson IPSC gun. I vividly recall the single extractor failure on the race-gun and it occured at roughly 20k rounds and I believe it was exactly what Bill said, an inclusion... A flaw in the original forging.

If someone would shoot ENOUGH (it ain't gonna be me) to tell if it makes a difference I'll throw a bunch of extractors in a load some time...
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:17 am 
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I think you can expect a call on that soon.....


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 26, 2008 8:29 pm 
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Thanks for the info.


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