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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 4:09 am 
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I am interested in having Hans Vang build me a purpose built defensive shotgun. I am considering a barrel less tha 18" (set up up similarly to the sacttergun tech professional model but with all of Hans' magic worked on the barrel) and wanted to find out what is required of me to do so. I also am looking for feedback if I do acquire this item legally and God forbid ever have to use it in a defensive situation what type of increased liability do I face in a court of law. Thanks in advance.

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 02, 2006 5:43 am 
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i too would like to do what you are saying... but i am a little weary about the "what if" factor. technically i know you can legally get one with the right tax stamp ect. but i tell ya what, i would just go with a rem. 870 police 18" and have hans do his magic. because then you will still have the ability to reach out and touch someone ... :)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 03, 2006 7:52 pm 
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Hey guys...just to put my .02 in here. I carried as a deputy sheriff an Ithaca Stakeout 12ga that I had bought (Yes, the same type as Tubbs carried). I carried it in my turn out bag, because even in the mid 90's the Sheriff I worked for would not let us carry a shotgun at all. This was my "back up gun" if I ever needed a little more help until the cavalry got there.
As for the legality/liability of it, Mas Ayoob did a great article several years ago on the topic of using NFA firearms for self defense (civilian owned machine guns, short barrel rifles, etc.) what I remember him boiling it down to was this.....If it is a righteous shoot, then there shouldn't be much more to worry about than with any other firearm....as long as your gear is legal where you live. I spoke with Mas on the phone a couple of times and he was very helpful and insightful, and he told me about a couple cases he was an expert witness in.My shotgun was legal in every way, but had I had to use it, it would have been in violation of department policy, tainting my case, but 580 sq. miles is a good sized county to have to wait for one of the other two deputies to get to you. I decided I would survive one way or another, ala Texas Ranger style and get nasty if things called for it. Good luck, and I'm getting off the soap box now!!

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 3:25 am 
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Thank you gentlemen. I appreciate the insight. JRMunsey, any chance you have a link to that article by Mr. Ayoob?

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 04, 2006 6:31 pm 
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No I'm sorry to say I don't. That was several years ago, before I had internet....it was in one of the gun-rags. I have found Mas to be a very open and friendly individual both times I called him as an eager young shooter and eager young rookie. He took time to answer all my questions thouroghly, and understandably....and without the braggadacio so common these days! Look up Lethal Force Institute online and give him a call. He probably has a copy he can "shoot" your way or at least shine a little more light than I can. Good luck!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:15 pm 
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dapp wrote:
I am interested in having Hans Vang build me a purpose built defensive shotgun. I am considering a barrel less tha 18" (set up up similarly to the sacttergun tech professional model but with all of Hans' magic worked on the barrel) and wanted to find out what is required of me to do so.


To answer the first question:

1. Before you go any further, find out what your state and locality allows re: NFA registered weapons ownership. For example: NY state prohibits the ownership of the following weapons which require registration under the NFA: SBS (Short Barrel Shotguns), SBR (Short Barrel Rifles), DD (Destructive Devices), Machine Guns, and Sound Suppressors. NY allows the ownership of certain AOWs (Any Other Weapons)

2. You'll need a Class III FFL dealer in your area to complete the transfer.

3. Assuming you're talking about a chopped 870 Remmy or 590 Mossy (pump gun), you're looking to apply for an SBS transfer. You need to grease the skids with the Chief LEO with jurisdictional authority your area (your Sheriff, Chief of Police). You need to make sure you have them lined up for the application. I'd recommend scheduling a "coffee meeting" with the CLEO to discuss why he/she should sign the application. The CLEO signature is mandatory for the application to the ATF (referred to as a Form 4). Your CLEO is not required to sign the application, and if the CLEO doesn't sign, your SOL. The ATF will not process the application any further without the signature.

4. The transfer tax on a SBS is $200. This tax must be paid on each transfer.

5. Your completed Form 4 with CLEO signature, transfer tax, applicable fingerprint cards and passport photos are sent to the ATF. And then the wait begins (2 to 5 months).

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Last edited by jimbo on Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:31 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
[...] Your CLEO is not required to sign the application, and if the CLEO doesn't sign, your SOL. The ATF will not process the application any further without the signature.

An NFA item could also be transferred/registered to a Corporation, in which case no CLEO signature is required. Many NFA items are transferred this way in Counties with non-NFA friendly CLEOs.

Also, an SBS manufactured from a non-NFA shotgun by shortening the barrel has to be registered on Form 1; any subsequent transfers will be done via Form 4. It may be less expensive for you to send just the barrel to be worked on and shortened, and then installing it back onto your shotgun yourself after your Form 1 is approved. Otherwise, if Hans Vang converts it to SBS, he will have to register it with BATFE, then have it transferred to you (if you're in the same State), or to a Class III dealer in your State, that in turn will transfer it to you.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 7:45 pm 
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Agreed..."Incorporating" is another strategy to get around the CLEO signature. The downsides:

1. You don't own the NFA weapon; the corporation does.
2. There are hassles with forming and maintaining the corporation.

Only go down this path if and only if the CLEO won't sign and you still want the NFA weapon.

To clarify: A transfer of a SBS (assuming it's already chopped) is on a Form 4. Chopping is done on a Form 1.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 07, 2006 8:02 pm 
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The upsides:
- No signature requirement
- Faster approval times
- More than one person could legally be in possession of the NFA item. This is especially important if said item is to be used for self-defense by you and your spouse. If SBS is registered to you, and your spouse has to use it one night when you're not home, she will be in a world of trouble (on top of dealing with whatever had just happened). If both your spouse and yourself are managers of the corporation that owns said SBS, either one of you could use it without having to worry about legal aspects of it.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 2:54 am 
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I am not sure what the laws are where you are but it is a $200 dollar tax stamp for a class 3 such as suppressor or full auto, but for something like a 14 inch pump gun is only a $5 dollar tax stamp. I am going through it right now, I got a factory chopped remington. I am in Wyoming by the way, but it should be the same all over.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2006 7:46 am 
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dbltap45acp wrote:
I am not sure what the laws are where you are but it is a $200 dollar tax stamp for a class 3 such as suppressor or full auto, but for something like a 14 inch pump gun is only a $5 dollar tax stamp. I am going through it right now, I got a factory chopped remington. I am in Wyoming by the way, but it should be the same all over.


To be clear:

1. Re: transfer tax stamps, I am referring to the NFA. The State and Local laws I was referring to simply allows or denies ownership of NFA weapons.

2. The only NFA weapon that can be transferred for $5 is an AOW. A shoulder fired 870 with a barrel less than 18 inches is a SBS.

(from CFR title 27, volume 1, parts 1 to 199)
SBS: A shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

(from NFA title 26)
AOW: An "any other weapon" means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition."

Based on the above definitions, if you're chopping down an 870 born with a stock, it's a SBS. That's a $200 tax stamp on transfer.

If you're chopping down an 870 born with a pistol grip (no stock), then it's an AOW (A Serbu Super Shorty is an example of an 870 registered as an AOW -think smoothbore pistol). That's a $5 tax stamp on transfer.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 7:45 pm 
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jimbo wrote:
...If you're chopping down an 870 born with a pistol grip (no stock), then it's an AOW (A Serbu Super Shorty is an example of an 870 registered as an AOW -think smoothbore pistol). That's a $5 tax stamp on transfer.

I may add that if this is the case, you can never lawfully put a shoulder stock on the weapon.

ML


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 9:23 pm 
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Good advice all. On the Federal side, if you start with a stocked shotgun and have the barrel cut below 18", then you will have a Short Barrel Shotgun - regardless of whether or not it has a stock on it. $200 tax stamp required. Do NOT have a sub 18" barrel and your stocked shotgun together in the same location. ATF interprets that as possession of a SBS. Whenever I have NFA work done, I have the parts shipped to the manufacturer, so I never have the components in my possession until after the Form 4 is approved allowing for transfer from the manufacturer to me.

If you start with a shot pistol, when it's cut down by an NFA manufacturer, you'll have an AOW. If you're considering this route, bear in mind that you can never mount a shoulder stock, otherwise your legal $5 tax stamped AOW will become an illegal, unregistered SBS costing you 10 years in the Federal penitentiary and $10,0000 - not including attorney's fees.

A cheaper solution is to buy a factory-built AOW from Mossberg (590A1 with 14" barrel), Remington (870 with 10" or 14" barrel) or Ithaca Stakeout (13" barrel). These run in the $350 to $750 range (the 10" Remington is expensive because it's rare and the Stakeout is expensive because it's been discontinued for years). If you want something more compact, you can go with a 20 gauge Ithaca Auto & Burglar Gun (or the modern copy by Denny's Gun) or one of the Serbu Super Shortys (build on Mossberg 500s or Remington 870s that have 9" barrels).

The reminder about State laws is important. You need to check to see whether or not Pennsylvania requires that you have a state permit to own an SBS or AOW.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 6:29 pm 
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I have a 12 inch barreled 870 and it is so handy it is hard not to like it.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:33 am 
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Having had several, let me jump in here.

1. Any modification of an existing shotgun will result in a $200.00 stamp, regardless of a stock or pistol grip.

2. Instead of incorporating, do a Revocable Living Trust. There are no fingerprint cards, and no L.E. signature required. Also, if it is done properly, more than one person can possess the NFA item. A trust can be written using several legal programs or find a sample on line. The only requirement is to have is notarized. The grantor of the trust can revise or modify the trust without sending the revisions to BATF. When you receive the NFA item, you simple add it to the inventory schedule. If something is sold, revise the schedule and remove it. There are no legal fees and it does not require the involvement of a lawyer. The trust is not required to be filed with any authority, except a copy to BATF when you send in your Form 1 or Form 4. It is really that simple.

3. I have owned a Stakeout and a WP870 from Jim Wilson. Both were considered AOW's because they were originally manufactured in that configuration by the factory. As a result, the stamp was $5.00.

4. I know a reputable CL III manufacturer / dealer that obtained a number of receivers new from Remington. They assembled the 870's with a short barrel AND shoulder stock as a new firearm. However they did it, these guns were approved and transferred on a Form 4 as an AOW with a $5.00 stamp. I had heard for years that if it had a stock, regardless of a conversion or new manufacture, it had to be considered a SBS and required a $200.00 stamp.

5. Finally, as a word of warning, anyone can possess a barrel less than 18" IF they don't have in their possession, a firearm to install it on. In other words, if Hans works a short barrel for you, he needs to hang on to it until the Form 1 clears.

They are a lot of fun and I have introduced my WP 870 to several bad guys over the years. It never failed to get their complete attention.

I hope this had not been too redundant.

Rob

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 22, 2008 11:51 pm 
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[quote="Rob Garrett"]Having had several, let me jump in here.

1. Any modification of an existing shotgun will result in a $200.00 stamp, regardless of a stock or pistol grip.

The issue here is the Excise Tax for "making" a new firearm (i.e., taking a Title I firearm and turning it into a Title II NFA firearm). Typically, the manufacturer (i.e., the person shortening the barrel for you if you are making an AOW from a pistol grip shotgun) will pass that cost on to you. In addition, you will have the $5.00 NFA tax stamp. I do not agree that a shotgun that originally came from the manufacturer with a pistol grip becomes a SBS when converted. If it NEVER had a shoulder stock affixed, then it will qualify as an AOW. Be sure to keep the original box and paperwork to show that it was a pistol grip shotgun as manufactured if you decide to go this route. I found it cheaper to simply order a factory built AOW to avoid the hassle, since the original paperwork shows it's an NFA AOW.

3. I have owned a Stakeout and a WP870 from Jim Wilson. Both were considered AOW's because they were originally manufactured in that configuration by the factory. As a result, the stamp was $5.00.

Both great guns. The Wilson Witness Protection Guns are quite collectible, as are the Ithaca Stakeout Guns (in both 12 and 20). The Wilsons have 14" barrels, the Ithacas 13" barrels. On the Ithaca, you'll want to switch to a Pachmayr Vindicator grip and fore end set (but keep the original pistol grip and fore end) for comfort and control.

4. I know a reputable CL III manufacturer / dealer that obtained a number of receivers new from Remington. They assembled the 870's with a short barrel AND shoulder stock as a new firearm. However they did it, these guns were approved and transferred on a Form 4 as an AOW with a $5.00 stamp. I had heard for years that if it had a stock, regardless of a conversion or new manufacture, it had to be considered a SBS and required a $200.00 stamp.

I heard this happened too, but it was a mistake at NFA Registry. As they make corrections, they send out letters warning people to remove the buttstocks. Even if NFA screws up and approves what should be a SBS as an AOW and your paperwork says its an AOW with a buttstock, you'd still be in violation of the law based on the statutory definition - not NFA's carelessness. This happened with SP-89s that got approved with the Choate/H&K folding stock as AOWs. When NFA Branch realized its mistake, they sent out letters telling tax stamp holders to remove the buttstocks. One guess as to how I know this.

They are a lot of fun and I have introduced my WP 870 to several bad guys over the years. It never failed to get their complete attention.

Andrews Leather makes a shoulder holster rig called the Firepower that allows slung carry of a pistol grip shotgun and pistol.[img]firepower.jpg[/img]
http://www.andrewsleather.com/


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:53 pm 
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Mr. Kim...that Andrews rig is pretty cool! Wish I had known about that while I had my last Stakeout! (unfortunately the rig costs more than my Stakeout plus the tax stamp)!. DeSantis also used to make a concealment shoulder holster for SBS shotguns (the same as their Mac Scatter for Uzis and MACs) but discontinued it in the mid-90s.--John

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:24 am 
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Charles,

Thanks for the information on the mistake with the stock issue.

I too have used by WP to influence the bad guy to cooperate! :D :D

I don't have any idea with Jim's guns are bringing these days. I do know a lot of folks have knocked the WP design off since Wilson first did them for the USMS.

Regards,

Rob

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:43 pm 
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Rob,

Thanks. I've always been partial to AOWs. It's that element of "surprise" associated with a large caliber weapon that's so compact.

Original Wilson WP Guns made for the USMS are pretty hard to come by, but they occasionally pop up on Bowers' website or Gunbroker.com, if you're looking for pricing. The last one I saw for sale was last year and it was going for upwards of $850.00. New Remington MCS AOWs are even smaller, but they go for nearly $1,000. The prices on AOWs don't move all that much, probably because the market for such firearms is relatively small.

Interestingly, since an AOW is considered a "concealable" firearm in CA, they technically can be carried on a CCW here.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 2:26 am 
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You can always get one of these. A Serbu Super-Shorty. http://www.serbu.com/top/superShorty.php
AOW, $5.00 tax stamp.
Image
Image
Image

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:25 am 
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JR Munsey wrote:
Mr. Kim...that Andrews rig is pretty cool! Wish I had known about that while I had my last Stakeout! (unfortunately the rig costs more than my Stakeout plus the tax stamp)!. DeSantis also used to make a concealment shoulder holster for SBS shotguns (the same as their Mac Scatter for Uzis and MACs) but discontinued it in the mid-90s.--John



If you are not an LEO, best be careful on that route too....carrying an AOW concealed might not be kosher with your CCW License. Many are for Pistols only and you would get nailed for concealing the AOW even though you have a permit.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 5:15 pm 
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John...at the time it would have been OK according to our state code, but since then Virginia has modified their CCW permits to read "concealed handgun". It wouldn't have mattered too much to me, as the whole time I owned that AOW I was a sworn officer :D . Best regards--John

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:29 pm 
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As screwed up as Washington Gun Laws are, I can own a Serbu, but it doesn't meet the criteria for CCW here either.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 01, 2009 6:47 pm 
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Florida statute defines a "weapon" for the purpose of a concealed weapons license as:
Quote:
... For the purposes of this section, concealed weapons or concealed firearms are defined as a handgun, electronic weapon or device, tear gas gun, knife, or billie, but the term does not include a machine gun as defined in s. 790.001(9). ...

So an AOW is good to go.

ML


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