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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:06 am 
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I don't do a whole lot of shotgun work, but this one's been on my list for quite a while and by the time I got to it I was ready for the diversion. I've always loved the Model '97, and never, ever had a problem with the bolt hitting my thumb when it comes out the back of the receiver-- or with it going "full auto" by not getting off the trigger soon enough. They are fascinating on the inside and oh so classic on the outside. Lots of parts too-

79 parts total
19 screws
10 flat springs not counting the buttplate trapdoor spring
4 coil springs

...and lots of things happen every time you rack it. One thing 97's are not is smooth and light of stroke-- you hafta rack it like you mean it.

The spec on this gun was, "Take this beat up, well-worn '97 with its 30" barrel and send it back to me looking like something from Indiana Jones or The Untouchables,"

No prob, but more work than one might think, more than just sawing it off. Everything had to stay within the bounds of what might have been done to it in the '20's, so no plastic, nothing Phillips or Allen-screwed, no glowing in the dark thingies. The customer wanted a good stout sling point up front which is hard on a '97, because the barrel band really is rather delicate in itself and in how it is attached to the barrel, so you don't attach to it or the mag tube. I made something up that was silver-brazed directly to the barrel. We wanted to go 18" but in order to get the sling point far enough foward to still allow not just take-down but complete disassembly, the barrel had to go to 20". 5mm ivory bead front sight is actually something I will consider in the future for any shotgun other than those spec'd with rifle sights-- it is fast.

The buttplate is off a Thompson, and honestly I'm not sure I didn't break the motif here, as I'm not 100% sure this isn't an M1-M1A1 part rather than a 1921-28 part (but I think they were all the same). But at any rate it looks and is very stout, really good for staving in those barrels of moonshine. The wood was all stripped, some dents steamed out (I'm no stock expert), sanded and left a little rough, and treated with linseed oil. Screws and internals were bead blasted and/or polished and blued by local gunsmith Mike Kloster, great job, and the rest was zinc phosphate Parkerized. I felt all blue would be more proper, you know, more like what a gunsmith in 1927 would have done, but there were just too many rough areas on the outside.

It came out looking pretty good though, and at least as far as I'm concerned it is still a completely viable fighting shotgun. One thing in particular I've always liked operating a '97 is that there is no damned cartridge lifter to contend with when loading the magazine. The ability to hold the trigger back and keep pumping shots off is of no use, no matter what anybody tells you. I used a '97 for years in competition, and let's just say even if you had 5 whiskey bottles to break at 5', 10', or 15' distance, spaced 5" or 2' apart from each other, whatever combo you think is easiest to hit, you would miss some or most of them going "full auto".



Image

Image


Last edited by Ned Christiansen on Sun Aug 08, 2004 7:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:31 am 
Aw com'on Ned. MORE pictures please!

--Mark


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 9:21 am 
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...I'm watching all the parking lots around for an appropriate car to use as a background for some photos....... y'know, without like getting the Golden Arches in the background.....


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 07, 2004 10:44 am 
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Nice one Ned! Have you ever gotten all the parts of a '97 back from refinishing, scratched your head and said, "Hmmmmmm. I hope I can remember where all those little screws and pins go." :D The beauty of them is that, despite their complexity, you really can't put them together wrong since all those screws and pins only fit in their intended place.

How delicate is the ivory bead and how is it attached? I usually use the biggest brass bead that Brownells sells but I like that one too.

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 Post subject: great
PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:01 am 
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That's a great looking poject.

I've been dying to do something with my 1935 takedown '97. I cut it down years ago for CAS, but it's been sitting waiting for a project every since I quit the cowboy stuff in the mid 1990's. It needs a makeover. After lots of good service, it deserves it.

Interested in trying a 2nd one? :D

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:40 am 
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Ha, you're so right, Dave. Even having worked on the '97 quite a bit some years ago, once I got it broken down into component parts, indeed I could not help but feel a twinge of intimidation when I looked at that pan full of parts! But just like you say, you just start putting things together and it's actually a pretty easy puzzle.

The ivory bead is out of Brownell's and has a 6-48 thread. I do kinda question how strong it is-- and the threads on it made for a slightly loose fit in the tapped hole-- but I've put maybe 20 rounds through it and no prob sofar. I did, per the directions, put it in with epox-- ah, I mean hide glue. If the customer blows it off I'll replace it with brass, but I wanted something white. I guess brass with white paint would not violate the character of the gun. I wish now I had mounted the bead further back, where the barrel band is cut out on top, that would have made it a lot less vulnerable if the owner should, say, go upside the head of one of Capone's boys with the barrel.

mrbieler, sure, and happy to, but it'll be a while before I can get to it..... this one too was a long time coming. You can contact me by Email if you want to get things rolling.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 1:41 pm 
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OK, here'ssome more '97 stuff. Left to right,
1940 mfgr, Tommy-gun buttplate and rear sling swivel, barrel-band clamp-on rear sight. I extended the mag on this one to the end of the barrel and added a second, original barrel band..... 8 shots.

Customer's gun from above, 1913.

1898 mfgr (just found that out today!), also with extended mag, 6-shot, with a sling stud in the stock that has a simple loop strap on it for hanging under your right arm, under the trench coat..... rifle sights brazed on barrel (front) and barrel/mag tube block or whatever it's called, in a fashion such as could have been done in the old days..... then I went and had the thing Z-Coated

:oops: :roll: :!:

Hey, worse than that, the 1940 one, I did that at the time I was first learning to run the EDM and like an idiot I burned some ports in it.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 08, 2004 2:18 pm 
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That extension does add a funky look to it. When I see shotguns with tubes as long or even longer as the barrels I can never tell if it looks right or not.

Now that you've teased again, you'll just have to post some more closeups.

One customer got all 3? Lucky happy man. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:32 pm 
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More pics of these or those like these please. How much would a job like this cost on a new Norinco '97 clone?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 8:02 am 
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mrbieler, sorry I never answered-- these do not all belong to the same guy.

adh, we set a budget of $1000 on this and I did not manage to stay completely within it.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 19, 2004 9:14 am 
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Ned,
I don't know how I missed this thread, but that is outstanding work. Great write up, and educational story with pictures....just my speed.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 6:09 am 
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Had occasion this week to revisit a Rem 11 I did for a Marine pal a couple years ago. It's another one of those where every time I get inside one I discover another aspect of its function and say yet again, "that guy was a genius!"

And so many of the parts are manufacturing nightmares! I'd hate to have to make any of those parts from scratch.

If my computer decides to once again cooperate in the near future, I'll post a few pics. It has the LPA rear sight, but since the receiver on these is very thin on top, it is keyed and silver brazed on. Front sight is off a FAL and brazed on.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 24, 2004 4:55 pm 
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I love those period pieces. Up the road from me in Waco is the Texas Ranger Museum. Most of the objects on display are guns, including some of Clyde Barrow's firearms. I don't remember the specifics since it has been a few years since I was there but I seem to recall that he liked to chop the buttstocks off some of his long guns and then put a loop sling on them to hang them under a coat just as Ned posted. I think there are a couple of shotguns and a BAR (Colt Monitor) done that way.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:17 am 
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Here are a few pics of that Remington Model 11:

Image

Image


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:23 am 
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That m11 looks great! What is the barrel length? Did you custom make that mag extension?


Last edited by jmcc111 on Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 26, 2004 8:42 am 
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I think the barrel is 21 or 22 inches.... I made the mag extension from the original mag cap and bought the raw tubing. The end is rolled over, and the end plug as you may notice is made from the end of a piece of .17 cal Douglas barrel blank. The stamping in the end signifies .17 cal., 1-in-10 twist, and "C" for chrome moly. Just happened to be the piece of stock that was handy when I needed to make the cap :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2004 3:08 pm 
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Awesome Ned, you've got email. Thanks for getting those pics up. Trim about 4" off and you've got my Auto-5.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:19 am 
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BTW, you so often hear that the mag tube on the A5/Rem 11 needs to be perfectly dry. I believe this is a wives' tale. A guy at Browning told me years ago that it was meant to be lubed with 30 weight. I keep mine lubed and the gun works (never even tried it dry). For those who are not intimate with the workings of this gun, the barrel recoils with the bolt, and as it does so, it pulls a bronze ring, actually a clutch, over the mag tube, to put some drag / delay on the barrel's movement. The clutch can be adjusted for grab by reversing a concave washer, or removing/putting a spring steel band around the clutch. This way you can make it work with light or heavy loads.

These guns are famous for being hard kickers but they are not so bad if the clutch is right. Savage also made this shotgun under license, with an aluminum receiver even.

I remember one story about these being used by somebdoy in the Border Patrol, this was a story wither by Col Askins or Bill Jordan. He tied a white rag around the muzzle and this was his night sight!


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 Post subject: Browning pix?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 8:44 am 
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Hi Ned,
Do you still recommend the Browning BPS as a pump alternative to the Rem 870? Why do you like these better as a base gun and do you have any pix of a BPS combat shotgun? Thanks!


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 9:14 am 
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Ned,

Thanks for the info and for fielding my emails on your work.

The post inspired me to get my E model take down worked on. After 10 years with me, and who knows what before hand, she deserved it.

I sent it off to a friend who is a gunsmith, CAS shooter, and fellow Land Rover nut for a tune up and face lift. Worn parts replaced, back bored, new springs, pins, etc., some new furniture, and a neat field blue finish.

Hope to get it back today and will post pictures soon. I can't wait to put her back into the line up.

While I don't mind guns showing the wear of honest use, I like it when I get to be the one putting the wear on them. :)

Thanks again for your posts. Truely awesome.

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 Post subject: '97 Mag Extensions?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 8:44 am 
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I'm going to drag this one up from the depths to ask Ned a question. I have been looking at the '97s with extended magazines, and I was wondering how you did it. Did you weld/braze two original mag tubes together, or did you use some other tubing? Do you think it would be possible to do the same with a Winchester Model 12? Truly awesome work....if you wanted to post some larger, more detailed photos, I sure wouldn't complain! :D Thanks!

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 10:08 am 
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I turn an outside step on one and an inside step on the other, telescope them together, and braze. The 97 mag tube has a lot of "stuff" on it so it easier just to joing two 97 tubes if you have them, but not that big a deal if you don't you just have to drill some holes in the end for the end cap screws and pin.

Some 97 mag tubes are actually flats rolled into a round and then joined by silver brazing. Interesting how they did things back then,


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 Post subject: Re: '97 Mag Extensions?
PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:29 am 
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Mossyrock wrote:
....if you wanted to post some larger, more detailed photos, I sure wouldn't complain! :D Thanks!


More Ovaltine please! (oops, I meant photos) :o

I had forgotten about this thread and I'm glad it's been resurrected. How has that ivory bead held up? Did you shorten that stock with the Thompson bullplate much? That would make it "tactical!" (Yes, I used the "T" word).

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Last edited by Dave Berryhill on Sat Nov 05, 2005 7:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:44 pm 
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I didn't shorten it really, just contoured the butt of the stock to accept it.

The bead must still be there as I havent' heard otherwise.....


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 Post subject: Remington Model 11
PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:52 am 
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Dragging this one to the top of the pile yet again, this time to talk about the Model 11.

Ned,

Has this shotty been retro-fitted with the two-piece Auto-5 carrier? If so, how big of a pain was it to install? I have heard a "'net rumor" that a mag extention for a Remington 870/1100 will fit one of these and/or an Auto-5 since they (suposedly) have the same thread pitch. Do you know if this is the case?

I am quickly coming to the conclusion that the Winchester '97 and the Browning Auto-5 are two of the coolest combat shotguns going...funny how they were both invented by the same genius!

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:28 am 
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The two-piece is a pretty easy - fit part. On some guns the pivot pins are larger and you just ream them bigger on the two-piece.

I've heard but not proved the 870/Rem 11 similarity, but will definitely check it out before fabbing another Rem 11 tube!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:31 am 
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Ned,
Is the Winchester 97 the same as the model 1897? Is there a particular year of manufacture that's better as a base gun than others?


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:01 pm 
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'97 = Model 1897,yes. As to whcih model might be better, I don't know, there aren't too many difs.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:32 am 
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Ned,

You may remember my Rem-11 that I shot at Second Chance. I rebuilt a US ordnance-marked gun that I bought lacking wood, and shot it for years, earning much loot.

The Rem-11 tube-end threads are the same as the 1100-11/87, but the amount sticking out of the forend differs. To fit an 1100 tube you either need to shorten the M-11 tube end (reducing internal volume) or turn a spacer to fill the gap between M-11 forearm and 1100 tube extension butt end.

Another approach is to install a Browning A-5 tube (the receiver threads are the same, imagine that) and then use an A-5 extension tube for capacity. I usually did that on the Savage and other guns, which had their own tube-end threads, not matching either Rem or Brng.

The two-piece lifter is perhaps the one thing John Moses didn't design that was an actual improvement over the original. The only problems I ever had installing those was the leaf spring that powers it. Some M-11 springs were a tad short, so I finally just ordered a Browning spring to go with the two-piece lifter, and those always worked.

And I always kept my mag tube lubed. I can't understand the shooters who insist that a dry mag tube is the answer to any problem, on any shotgun.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 21, 2005 6:42 am 
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Mr. Sweeney, it is a pleasure to make your aquaintance. I just want to establish, for the record, that my current obsession with the Auto-5 and the Remington model 11 is ALL YOUR FAULT! The Model 11 you just mentioned is the one that got me started down this path. I have spent several hours reading your Gunsmithing Shotguns book, and I have just about worn the print off of the Auto 5 and shotgun sights chapters. Thanks very much! :D Like so many others here, you are an evil influence...especially on my bank account. :twisted: You should be proud! Keep up the good work!

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