ltwguns.com

....most of the replaced parts


didnt have the internals here at the moment...

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http://www.warnerpistols.com/
cvwinabq@live.com
Rio Rancho New Mexico

"I like double barrels....Aprilia, Ducati, and sxs rifles"

I don't understand why "replacing all the MIM internals" is so high on peoples list of "requirements". My Taurus 1911 has plenty of MIM parts and it is a fine shooting pistol. I have well over 3,000 rounds through it and have never had a problem. I know that the M9 I carry in Iraq has plenty of MIM parts and I have put maybe 4,000 rounds through it in the last 13 months. It was far from a new pistol when it was assigned to me. It runs like a champ.

Of course I wouldnt want MIM parts in any of my custom pistols but they help keep the costs down on the production guns I own. Yes, I am sure there are countless horror stories out there about MIM parts failing at some critical time. Ive never experienced any myself, and every person that I have asked has not either. They have just "heard" about it, or read about it on some web forum. If the parts were as delicate as some would have you believe then I don't see how companies like Ruger could offer lifetime warranties on their products. Seems like thier repair facilities would be running 24 hours a day.

-Matt Williams

Maybe this is a point of confusion.

What I'm asking for is the quality of components of a custom pistol, not necessarily the "benefits of custom work". Remember that a large part of the cost of custom work is the machining of the base gun. Look at any custom builder's price list to cut in a beavertail on an A1 1911, or high cut a front strap, or dovetail for sights, AND figure that all these changes require refinishing.

What I'm looking for is a gun with forged frame and slide and tool-steel internals, and that comes stock with Novak cuts, high-cut front strap, and a beavertail grip safety.

Part of the cost of "custom" is also the very term and what it implies. One customer wants an S&A grip safety, another wants a Wilson, another wants a CMC, etc. I'm less concerned with those nuances.

and then part of the cost is the hand fitting and blending of all of these pieces. However, if what allows a production 1911 to be "assembled" and not "fit" is a looser tolerance of parts then I would think that even tool steel parts would be capable of being machined to a slightly looser tolerance than parts intended for a custom pistol. In fact, isn't this the very idea behind the various "drop in" FCG kits that many companies sell?

I'm willing, and I think others in the market are as well, to put up with a trigger pull that's less than "glass rod" and I'm willing to deal with whatever grip safety comes on the gun, and I'm willing to deal with changing out the sights and grips to fit me, etc. I'd just prefer to start with the things that are expensive to do after the fact, already done and I'd prefer not to pay $50 for MIM internals just to throw them away for $100 tool steel.

Yes, but the price I was talking about included a slide and frame from Baer, Caspian, Rock River or another quality provider.

Unfortunately, most of the major firearms mfrs. will not supply just a frame and slide for custom work. If one adds in the $800.00 +/- price tag of a new Colt for instance, you're right back where you started.

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Don Williams
http://www.theactionworks.com
http://www.ltwguns.com

Please keep me posted on this. Is this something being issued from your shop or from Kimber?

I too find this thread very interesting. At the risk of being against the predominant party line, I too find the rush to replace all MIM parts to be overdone. I think most of us would agree that MIM done right is OK in a production 1911. I don't know whether MIM done right is within the price range of current production 1911s. Also, thumb safeties and slide stops are predominantly cast, even from the top makers and nobody seems to scream about them. Although all of us would like to see an affordable top quality 1911, I am of the belief that in order to bring the price down to the $600 or so range, you will have to make compromises, at least you will in the 1911. JMB designed this gun when labor was cheap, machinery was expensive, and a fair amount of hand fitting by skilled workers was considered normal in production of firearms. Now CNC machinery is affordable, MIM in large runs is economical, and labor is the most expensive part of the process, with truly skilled labor in very short supply. That's why a truly good quality 1911 can't be made for what it costs to make a Glock, Sig, etc. Those modern guns were designed to fit modern production with as little skilled labor involved as possible.

The closest I've seen to a top quality full featured 1911 at a reasonable price were the original Kimber Custom Classics. Those guns had great reputations. But then it seems that QC slipped, they messed around with external extractors that didn't work well, and they added those abominable Schwartz safeties.

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Ted

I have to agree with many of the excellent observations of Jason, Lawman, and TedT above, and add my own personal not. My best friend has a beautiful US Property 1911 (NOT 1911a1) that was built in 1917 and except for the barrel is all original! (the barrel had to be replaced about 10 years ago because after 80 years and God knows how many wars, it had become a .46 calibre smoothbore!! ). He carries this pistol regularly and with the "new" barrel in it, the old warhorse will shoot damn close to my custom Delta and 1* the one trip we made to the range with it. Now he is a purist when it comes to firearms, at 42 years old his "woods gun" is either a Springfield '03 or an M1 Garand. I cannot make him understand why I would want to spend big money on a custom pistol like the YoBo or others. Now granted...his selection of arms are VERY effective and he can do some scary stuff with all of the above, but a part of my quest for a custom gun has been pride of ownership and personal input into MY firearm. His old Colt still is pretty tight after 91 years and the quality workmanship is still very evident, but he has never carried concealed for a half day or more and doesn't understand for example that some of the rough edges can make carriying this beauty a pain in the____? I have had this very same conversation with him several times, and he always says "Heck, I could have built/done that for you." He IS a very good machinist but is want to cut a corner now and again, so I finally ended the discussion (slightly bruising his pride) by telling him "Buddy, I'm sure that if I gave you a paintbrush, you could paint me some sort of picture...but if I want a rembrandt...I want a rembrandt". I feel that in the pistol arena that the crop of true custom smiths are just that..true artists that will leave a legacy behind them.
As for the quality production vs. custom aspect of this discussion goes, I had the same sort of issue when I first started in law enforcement. I wanted a quality gun that had good parts and wouldn't fail me when I needed it most. Now I knew about the growing custom market back then, but knew that as a rookie I couldn't afford a Wilson (still making true customs then) or a RoBar (which was my dream gun), so when Kimber first came out with the Gen I Pro-Carry series (limited to 1500 guns) I compromised and got myself one of the 1500 Commander sized guns and carriyed it without problem for many years off and on.. Then I joined this forum a few years ago and found a great gentleman named Gary eastridge who made my dream of owning a true custom 1911 come true, so the ol' Kimber got traded. i made a compromise until I could obtain my true goal and the little Kimber served me very well in that capacity.--John

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"There is a true glory and a true honor, the glory of duty done, the honor of integrity and principle."--Gen. Robert Edward Lee

Rob s, it will come from Kimber as a complete gun. The upgrades will be done here in our shop. The guns will be serialized referencing Kimber and AC Firearms, ie; KACF0001- ETC and available only through us. We are going to try very hard to meet the criteria set forth in this discussion or at least try and come up with the best compromise.
As a production/custom shop we have found that you cant have it all as stated already. But,I think we've come up with the best compromise.

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http://www.warnerpistols.com/
cvwinabq@live.com
Rio Rancho New Mexico

"I like double barrels....Aprilia, Ducati, and sxs rifles"

RE: "Kimber, by AC Firearms"

A few observations and suggestions:

It doesn't make much sense to me that these pistols would come from Kimber complete only to have nearly every small part replaced. If that's the only way Kimber will do it, then I would find another way.

I think it is safe to say that Kimber's image has taken a pretty severe beating these last few years, particularly in the market segment that cares about things like MIM (whether or not such concern is justified; that is another subject). Might another brand for the base gun find better acceptance in the market? I think it is at least possible.

Forget the 'fancy' grips. Adds cost to no worthy end (many, if not most, will be replaced).

Be sure to include the slide stop on your list of parts to replace; ditto for the thumb safety.

IMO, a guy can take the two-tone thing only so far. Put another way, I would go with all stainless bottom end parts.

I would also go with a stainless steel slide on 'a pistol for the masses.' (It could still be finished black.)

I believe a company called 'Caspian' sells slides and frames. Add a barrel (which it appears you are also replacing on the Kimber), and aren't you well on your way? Why wouldn't something like that be a better way to do this?

Delete the front slide serrations. If you do not, I predict you will hear no end of it (and probably sell a lot fewer pistols).

Last, I believe the original question posed in this thread is already well answered in the market for used custom and 'semi-custom' pistols. It takes some looking, but they're out there.

-AC

Something like Chuck is doing with the Kimber but to a STI Spartan would certainly bring the cost down.
Sub $600 base gun
add a reliability package
high cut and machine checkered frontstrap
Harrison rear sight
nicely beveled or a blended S&A magwell
Recrown factory barrel or replace

Pistol Dynamics is doing something similar with the Springfield GI guns.

Just my two cents...

Delete the front slide serrations, and any checkering on the front strap. Even machine cut, it costs money. Keep the money in good tool steel hammers and sears, slide stops, extractors, FP stops. GI recoil system. Go with Novak cuts for the sights, as several others make sights for the same cut. The grips are meaningless to me - I always replace them.

I too have owned lots of original, Series I Kimbers. I would replace the slide stop, FP stop, extractor, barrel bushing, trigger (with a short one) and recoil system. All except the extractor were more-or-less drop in. Later, the hammer and sear would go. These guns worked and held up quite well.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

Are they going to be sending you complete guns that you rework, or frame/slide/barrel and a few other parts for you to then add to?

What was suggested on another forum was to start with a used Springfield Milspec and send it to Springfield's custom shop to have them work it over a bit. But that seems to add up too. From the Springfield price sheet.

$180 - Install Novak/Heinie low mount carry sights (indludes fixed rear dovetail front)
$ 70 - Fit extended style thumb safety
$100 - Install Springfield beavertail grip safety
$ 50 - Match trigger installed
$ 75 - Undercut front strap

The above alone is $475, still uses their stock internals (any idea on the quality or makeup of these?) and uses their in-house parts for those that are replaced. It also doesn't cover a refinish if you start with something other than stainless.

Added to a base $550 gun that's still over $1k, and you still have parts that are less than ideal and that need to be thrown away.

the slide stop would be included. The serrations cant be left off.
The whole is cheaper than the parts.

as for using caspian...THATS another in our liineup and theres no way to build it to a sub $1500 gun in our shop

hopefully we can get some decent pictures this week...lol

_________________
http://www.warnerpistols.com/
cvwinabq@live.com
Rio Rancho New Mexico

"I like double barrels....Aprilia, Ducati, and sxs rifles"

It probably is possible but that kind of misses the point. The difference, once again, will come down to cost of the components. As soon as you move from a $0.10 or $1 MIM (or whatever) sear to a tool steel part that cost say $10, even with "loose" tolerances, your price point is becomes harder and harder to achieve. No apply that same comparison to all the parts in the gun.

Rob, what you want isn't unreasonable... although as I've mentioned it may be hard to achieve at your $1000 price point. The most challenging aspect, as is so clearly evidenced in this thread, is getting everyone else to agree with you (the proverbial you) and your choices for the spec's while still making it profitable for a manufacture to bring such a product to market.

And that is yet another fine example of why the custom gun industry exists. As I said earlier mass marketed guns are built just for that, the masses. By functional definition when one has refined there tastes, desires, needs, wants, etc. to a point that they cannot buy said item off the shelf they go to a specialist, a custom gunsmith in this example.

I maybe trying to put to simple of a point on all this but as I see it what you want can exist but you'll have to source it (like through a custom maker) as opposed to being able to walk into your local shop and find your version of perfect waiting in the showcase for you.

And, just in case anyone has forgot, "cheap, fast, good... pick any two".


Gentlemen, while we do appreciate the contributions and participation in this discussion I can see this thread not staying on task.

Since this is a forum for, about, and dedicated to custom pistols, and in all honesty this thread probably doesn’t fit to begin with, let’s keep the discussion focused to the original question of:
I can see this thing veering off track so let’s keep the discussion focused on and about the possibilities (or lack thereof?) of such a gun/price point, please. Thanks.

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Heirloom Precision
http://www.heirloomprecision.com

[gun and price point]

I am surprised that the question is still being asked.

STI has done it already...for $600 (the street price of the Spartan when it came out...perhaps it's a bit more now). http://www.stiguns.com/guns/Spartan/Spartan.html

You get it the way they make it, hence the term Production.

How do they get there? They ship their parts over to the Philippines, where the guns are put together and shipped back (apparently, put together rather well...from all reports). The frame (cast), slide (not cast), and barrel (imported to P.I.) are not STI parts. The trigger group (tool steel) safeties, etc are STI parts. The guns are QC'ed by STI when they get them.

STI's customers are competition shooters...who shoot the heck out of their guns. (3,000 rounds is considered a break-in) STI can't afford to have the guns fall apart...they know they are going to get SHOT.

Some might not like like the features that STI choose to include, but they included those features to fit their market.

Want something different...convince them there is a market for it. They have proved they can produce a solid 1911 with solid parts and fitting...at a budget price.


Or, for more refinement...pick their Trojan model (USA built) that comes in around $1000. You can get it with a Novak cut (I believe, for no extra charge). Scalloped front strap and high cut under the trigger guard as well. Blued. Sharp. (It still has those front serrations...if you hate them, you hate them) http://www.stiguns.com/guns/Trojan5/Trojan5.html


For those wondering...No, I am not an STI shooter. My working guns are...another type.

I come to LTW for the artistry and craftsmanship that goes into the 1911. Keep exploring the envelope, gentlemen !!

I am also in the habit of carrying high dollar 1911s on and off duty.

I would rather have a Glock given up for evidence, but my biggest fear is that I would be involved in a shooting and someone would read the report and see that I used a Glock. Even if I survived the encounter, I don't think I would survive the embarrassment.

As a side note to this thread drift, I bought a Colt Gunsite Pistol and it was a great ready-to-go piece for a little over a grand. Of course, I have since sunk at least $500 more into it...

ML

Placing my two kopeks on the table, I have to agree with "Old Lawman" about how local LEOs will handle your high ticket piece. They (the local coppers) are generally NOT gentle with what they view as evidence, no matter how many angels are on your shoulder cheering you on. If you are at that point, congratulations. You have survived a shooting confrontation. THAT is a positive situation. Say nothing and for God's sake GET A LAWYER!!!!!
That said, when carrying, the only thought should be why you are carrying the "dayum thang" in the first place. You carry because of the potential threat and it is your right. Period. No other explanation is needed.

Carry the goodie which will allow you the mental comfort to equal the physical discomfort of schlepping that chunk of iron around and having it poke into your side. Doing it's job is the important thing. If you have to use your concealed weapon, it presupposes that you have tried everything to remove yourself from the threat, or remove the threat from you, and that you have not been successful, leaving only the causis extremis. If that case arises, your greatest expense will be legal fees, and the cost of cosmetic surgery on your eventually recovered from the police weapon will be diminished to Munchkin size.

Does that mean that everyone who carries a pistols should carry tactical plastic? I dont think so. But that is just my opinion.

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I don't associate with or support anti-Semites, Fascists, Marxists, Terrorists or other anti-American scum. Unhappily my President does so with pride.

As usual, being an analog kind of retro (that means old and out of date) guy in a computer/digital universe, I buggered up my reply. I directed that poor effort at reply towards "Old Lawman", when I intended that it should have been aimed at "Mushinto", who IS an old lawman.Sorry for the dumb-stuff.
I'll just slink off now and not be heard until after the holidays.

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I don't associate with or support anti-Semites, Fascists, Marxists, Terrorists or other anti-American scum. Unhappily my President does so with pride.

No problem. I too am an old law man

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No good deed goes unpunished.

have you looked at Detonics USA?? if you can find one and can get by the different looking slide rear, it has no MIM parts, is all SS, reportedly very well built and reliable. new, the 5" model sold for 995.00 if i remember correctly. sadly, they appear to have gone the way of the other reincarnations of Detonics, but hey, its the 1911 platform!--cam

Based off the above statement it appears this thread may have now run its course. I think there has been some good information given here about what is and isn’t possible but I think it’s time to put this one to bed.

As a final thought there is something I can’t help but point out:

Rob, at one time you possessed three pistols (the Ed Brown Special Forces, Wilson CQB, and 1*) which you paid $1800+/- a piece for as I recall it. It seems at this point you have fairly well fleshed out what it is you want in a using 1911 and have done so, at least in part, via the experienced gained by owning the three pistols mentioned above that when totaled cost you $5400+/-. Baring all this in mind, I can’t help but contemplate why now, instead of looking for something you seem to know doesn’t exist, you just wouldn’t take that same $5400 and have exactly what you want built by a competent and professional 1911 ‘smith who has dedicated himself to building exactly what you’re looking for; your own version of perfection.

There can be lots of nuances and knowledge gained through experience but in the most basic terms, it seems you know what you want. Why not simply go out there and get it?

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Heirloom Precision, LLC.
480-804-1911

Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.

TR