ltwguns.com

This is a noob question so please educate me as to why I should get a custom from one of the masters vrs getting a simicustom from Dawson, Les or Wilson ect. Some of these have lifetime warrentees I belive and will guarantee's group shots at 25 or 50 yards. I have checked some of the custom gun web pages and so far no one guarantee's how they shoot.
I know I must be missing something and would like to know the reasons.



Thanks, Cary

Sort of comparing Apples and Oranges in my book. First off with a Custom you get just or all the features you want on the base gun or frame of your choice so it opens up your choices greatly.

More importantly besides getting a higher quality gun worked on and built by one person as opposed to the semi prod system you get a gun which has a part of that Smith invested and built into that gun, dont know how else to say it. The process that I went through with Chuck building my Commander and with Steve Bailey building my Full size was part of the enjoyment of the gun and something that I carry with me whenever I pull that gun out.

Whereas Ted or Chuck dont put out on their sites any guarantees about how the gun will shoot, if you send them a gun you will get one back that will outperform any semi production gun IMO.

Finally there is the factor of why buy a gun that any of 10,000 could buy when for the same or sometimes for less you can have a guy unique to itself / yourself

_________________
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. - John Bernard Books

Well said Simon......
I have 5 customs built on Colt's uppers/lowers and 1 Les Baer with a couple options added at my request. All are very nice and great shooters. But there is something about customs that you can call your own.....

G

_________________
Gary Pennington
email........ brewdog57@hotmail.com


I've learned age is a very high price to pay for maturity

Cary,

I'm going to chime in on the accuracy guarantee, as I feel the first two answers were significant for the "why go custom" question. IMHO, accuracy guarantees are simply eyewash... a way of luring in people. Some shops even offer a better accuracy guarantee for a $150 - $300 fee. Why? Do they actually take the time to build it right for that extra few hundred dollars? Do the customers who only pay $2000 without the guarantee get a shabby barrel fit? Also, I have seen plenty of guns that had the "1.5 @ 25/50yds" guarantee" that wouldn't shoot three times that with any loads... ammo is different from bullet to bullet & lot to lot, so what do they do, send a case or two of the magical 1.5" load with the gun? The point is, either it's right or it's not. A semi-custom is made by a low-wage employee in most cases, and the custom is made by a professional. There is a huge difference between a gun that says "Les Baer Custom" on the slide and one that Les Baer himself made. If you compare prices, you will find that oftentimes a custom smith will be able to provide an even better gun for your dollar, and doesn't have to write any guarantees or warranties. Why? Because they did the job themselves and will stand by their work as long as the problem was THEIR workmanship, a part THEY chose and installed, or something THEY overlooked. More often than not, the non-guaranteed custom will outperform the semi-custom in any category. Sorry for the rant, but I've seen way too many of those high dollar big name semi-customs in custom pistolsmith's shops for repairs and upgrades. Many are good, but they are far from a truly custom, hand-built, individually crafted weapon.

This was in no way a shot at you, but instead a post that will hopefully provide insight into a commonly asked question. I had the same question a few years back and learned a few VERY expensive lessons before my eyes were opened. There is no need to have to make the same mistake(s) I did.

Respectfully,
~Jim Keeney

_________________
"I'd rather die on my feet than keep living on my knees." - Emiliano Zapata, Mexican Revolutionary

To All, thanks for your honest and frank replies, I take no offense whatsoever. I am a noob when it comes to this and I am thankfull that I have found this site and others. I would much pefer to leard from others mistakes as I have made enough of my own

The bigest problem I will have with a custom build is I really have no idea of what I want or need

I guess I need to keep reading and asking questions.

Thanks, Cary

I retail the 1911's from all of the top 3 and from the one man shops for about 10 years now. I can say this from handling all.

You have a loyal following from all to include top three and the one man shops. All will serve you well with decent ammo, decent maintenance and an operator who respects the tool in his/her hands.

As one of the other posters mentioned. It is feel, trust, worksmanship, I should say craftsmanship of the tool you are to put in your hands. Is this gun for me or everyone?

I have one gun, a Wilson Tactical Elite which I do extremely well with, just feels good and has yet to have a gun issue. Yes, some operator issues, (Me being a DUH). It feels good to me. I have been shooting it since 1998 and my picture is in the catalog with it. I also have one from a particular one man shop (Vic Tibbet's) which shoots significantly better than I can. That guy is now an integral part of Gun Crafters and makes the .50GI.

Do I have my top three favorites. Definitely. Do I have my one man shop favorites Definitely. But do not play the "best gun" game. There is NO best gun. You as individual have to find the "best gun" for your personal wants, needs, style and use. To be polite the 1911 market is "saturated" with production guns in the $300 to $1500 price point. Above that price point is where you start getting some type of attention to personal tastes, needs and where a maker's reputation makes a difference. The maker's reputation is earned not given.

Larger shops make more guns to fit standard needs and use the products or parts that have served them well but do NOT allow deviation's from those products or parts. i.e. Try to get any of the Top three to use another of the top three parts. This is not a cut but the larger shops have found for whatever reason to use what they approve. Do their guns work. Yes, as all three are still around.

Same goes for the one man shops. We all have "good buddies" who just bought a dremel tool and will do the work "cheaper." Remember the craftsmen have earned their reputation from putting out good work.

You have to answer the question of is the gun I am buying fit my personal wants, needs, and amount I have to spend or are my needs off the shelf.

One man shops use or make it to both your and the craftsmans specifications. i.e. if you want something your way the craftsman will build it that way or tell you why that you idea is not the "way to go."

As I have been getting "Wisdom hair" of late (More gray than black now). I have been trending to the craftsmen as I see the individual who has skill slowly being replaced by technology.

I just like the personal touch, I get from only one of the top three and especially from the one man shops out there.

Best Price is rarely the best value. Discounts are for a reason and your undying gratitude is not it. Do your research but you do get what you pay for up front or in the end.

I just hope this give you a little different perspective.

_________________
Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters

Do your research but you get what you pay for front end or back end
http://www.pt-partners.com
@ptpartners_tx

Extremely thoughtful and well said Terry.

_________________
An armed society is a polite society--Robert Heinlein

Mr Peters,

That was very well thought out and stated. It makes me want to go back and rethink my choice of words. Thank you for your input.

Respectfully,
~Jim Keeney

_________________
"I'd rather die on my feet than keep living on my knees." - Emiliano Zapata, Mexican Revolutionary

it also depends on price.

for example you can get a really good "semi" such as springfield PRO. which has a lot of custom features and hand fit ect. ect. for aobut 2k out the door. or at least i have seen that.

i havent even DARED to price out my caspian 5" build i want to get one day by ned/yost or one of these other fine gentleman.(prob. ned, cause hes from MI!!! )

but i would bet money that the true custom will be a lot more $$$. not saying it isnt worth it. its what you can afford, what you will be doing with the gun,ect. ect.

one day i will have a full blown custom.

Not so fast, obviously you can go as pricey as you can afford with a custom gun, if your wallet can handle it then you can drop 5-6K on a custom gun but you dont have to. One of Ted's *1 guns is far less than that and qualifies as a custom gun and I would, personally, put money down on one of his *1 variants over a stock Springer Prof. any day of the week. When you price a custom gun from Ted, Chuck or the other fine smiths on the board and compare it price wise to a Les Baer or a Wilson you often find the price difference is neglible - depending on what you want out of a gun, as I said if you tell them money is no object and you want a full house gun 2nd to none then you will obviously be spending more than a wilson

_________________
I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them. - John Bernard Books

I think there is a best grade gun. I think the topic is well covered by a fine smith not a member of this group but wll known to these folks just the same. He prices his best grade work at about $4,000 added to the base gun. I'm quite sure it's worth every penny. I've priced out work on the Yost-Bonitz web site and the prices for what I really want get to be more than I can afford before I'm done clicking options. If you want a best grade gun it will cost time and money and sad to say after that the best grade may not be the best gun for you. It's quite possible for someone recoil sensitive to shoot better with a Remington 1100 than with a Purdy after all.

There are less than best grade guns from the named smiths and from the small production makers that are entirely satisfactory for most purposes. If the package from a gunsmith or the gun from a small maker is just the way you would order it if it were a full custom (Ed Brown makes a really nice gun, Wilson does the paint job in assorted colors and so on) then save the time and be happy. .

I have a lesser gun in 9x23, not an heirloom, with a thistle on it that cost me about the same as a Wilson CQB. I wanted a 9x23 from a respected maker of 9x23 pistols and I was offered a Wilson at a time I had some cash. Each has performed flawlessly so far. FWIW I'd be hard pressed to expect a best grade gun to outshoot either of the lesser guns. In fact I have a nice almost original Series 70 that does OK too. I've had others I thought were good enough. But I can tell the difference in my hand without looking and I know which one pleases me the most looking over the sights today.

I can point to lots of little ways the smithed gun is nicer. Things I'd like on the Wilson and might actually have done some day. A Snap-On end wrench feels better in the hand but that doesn't keep me from using a Craftsman wrench to do a job. I know a guy who took a GI Colt to a gunfight because he didn't want his nicer guns to rust in the evidence locker. The differences are real, mostly priced fair and worth it to you only if you think so.

I THINK THAT IS THE BEST POST ON THIS SUBJECT TO SUM IT ALL UP!


so back to my theory. the springfield pro is a GREAT "semi custom" no its not near the perfection of an inhouse one off custom but. in my current situation i could prob. blow 2k on a gun but 4-5k takes a little bit more thought to part with the money.....

Value is definitely in the eyes of the owner. Thanks for bringing this topic up. I was questioning the same thing at the time when I was deciding on my next piece to my collection. One thing I noticed in making my decision was the choices and flexibility I can have with building a full blown custom. At the time, I was researching Wilson, LB, etc. There were things that I didn't like about either one. Wilson prefers using their parts, and LB didn't seem focused on individual customer requests, at least that how I felt when I was dealing with them. There were things I learned from my current 1911 that I liked and disliked. From the info learned, I opted for the full house "build from scratch" custom. The larger manufacturers weren't offering me what I was looking for.

If this is your first step into customs, you should buy what you can afford. Full customs cost alot of money and it's not always instant satisfaction considering the wait time, but it's like a tailored suit. It's made to your requirements and is made with the utmost attention. Doesn't mean you can't find a nice suit that's already made. Just the customer service is not as high. My advise would be to go semi-custom and see what you like or don't like when you use it. Get a nice 1911 that will be a good platform for a full custom job in the future.

There are always things that can be improved, I think the custom smiths are the ones that always try to bring it to that level if not above. They work to satisfy their customers. If it don't shoot straight, they'd be more than happy to fix it till it's to your liking.

Cary find a 1911 addict like Jason Burton and dry fire a bunch of his pistols and you will know what you want!!!

Jason has be started into pairs of pistols. Get a basic mil-spec type pistol. Shoot it for a while. Save your money and get exactly what you want. You will not be disappointed.

I plan to buy a pair of pistols from each LTW gunsmith. It may take me the next decade or so.

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Lester Wang

Lester, etal--I think Jason has a sideline business robbing an occasional bank for all those "pairs"
I'm working up to my first full custom, trying to decide on the basic 'wants' before approaching any of the 'smiths on this forum, but it's coming in the near future. May have to sell some of the herd to Jason just to get it done.
Jeff

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An armed society is a polite society--Robert Heinlein

Let me add my $0.02...

Cary – To answer your questions directly let me start with the subject of accuracy guarantees. Of course everyone knows that accuracy with a firearm always comes down to the ‘screw behind the butt-plate’ but you may find that one of the reasons custom makers don’t offer a written guarantee of accuracy is because that principle is relatively absurd. Any one of the builders on LTW will tell you their guns will shoot very well, and they will, as long as the shooter does his/her part. It’s inherent of the fact that the gun will be built correctly... after all it is a custom gun. Semi-custom makers offer that kind of warrantee because it’s good marketing and it helps to sell pistols. Many custom makers don’t because most buyers already know what they are getting when they write the check and at the same time that the guns are capable of “X” number of inches @ “X” number of yards the customer may not be.

Truth be told, accuracy guarantees are almost laughable because it’s hard to guarantee the ability of the shooter. I have a pair of guns that I can shoot very well. One of them put 5 rounds into 1” @ 15 yards with 4 of those rounds going into 0.95” (yes I have the targets to prove it)... and that was with me behind the trigger. But, you put that same gun into one of my shooting partners hands and he can barely get it to stay with in 2” @ 10 yards.

On the subject of product warrantees, I have found that I seldom have needed one (for both semi-custom and custom pistols) provided the gun is built correctly to begin with. If your buying a custom gun from a reputable maker you are basically buying the guarantee that your pistol will built correctly the first time. Thus there is really no need for a maker to come out and state “I offer a warrantee of this or that”. Your paying for it from the get-go and any maker worth his salt will stand behind his product until he stands no longer. I know that is the case with the members of LTW as it is with most of the custom pistol industry.

Out of all the custom guns I own I can’t recall having to send none back for major repairs because, again, I got what I paid for from the start... perfection. But, it’s also very comforting to know that, with a custom maker, should I end up needing repairs or “warrantee work” the builder will be doing it himself. I won’t be sending the gun back to be worked on or inspected by someone who never touched the gun during its build process, which may be the case with a semi-custom maker. I’m not knocking semi-custom makers, its just part of how the business runs.

So now we have the basic questions of why buy a possibly more expensive custom pistol instead of the often less expensive semi-custom pistol, which admittedly will do just about everything a true custom 1911 will do. For me it’s choice and knowing that one man will labor over my gun until it’s just right... and maybe a bit of ego investment. Custom pistols are like the Burger King thing... I can have it my way. Try buying a pistol from Wilson with an Ed Brown grip safety or with Heinie sights instead of the WC product. Not gonna’ happen. Not good, not bad, just is. While a semi-custom pistol will do 95% (or more) of what a custom pistol will do you are giving up something when you buy a pre-packaged semi-custom 1911, choice. With semi-custom 1911s the customer is stuck with certain parts or features that are built into the gun but for most that seems to be an acceptable trade off when one considers the often shortened lead time of a semi-custom 1911.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m not bad-mouthing semi-custom 1911s. I have one in particular that has been one of the best dollar values I’ve ever got out of a gun. And I guess that’s what it comes down to, value. For some spending $2000-$3000 on a semi-custom that gets them close to perfection with a 90 day turnaround is the best value. For others the additional $500-$1000 to have a gun that may indeed take years to receive but will be nothing short of perfect is the best value. I think Chuck Roger’s saying of “Good – Fast – Cheap… pick any two” is pretty appropriate here.


Nah, I quit doing thrill seeker stick-ups and robbing banks once I met Bailey... he’s cured me of my wayward past.

Be careful about hanging around with the likes of Jason, Cary. He'll have you hot for twins in a hurry......

Eh, Lester..........

BTW, you've received some awfully good answers here from some people that know whereof they speak.

Let me just toss in two more pennies worth.

Pick up a 'production custom' Study it. Every line, every curve, every nuance. Caress it. Close your eyes and let it melt into your hands.

Then do the same with a true custom from one of the masters. You'll understand then.

_________________
CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

I have a pair of commanders at Tim's and a pair of commanders at Ted's. I have a pair of HP at Don's. My gun budget for the year is done for. I will have to budget a pair every year or so. Ned's list is a decade away so I have a chance.

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Lester Wang

You all have giving me more time and your knowledge than I ccould have hoped for. I now have something to save for a true custom gun. Now I need to learn the differences between the different brands and models of the base guns and the upgrades that the Smiths do to them. Looks like it will take some time to get educated.

Thanks again to all of you, Cary

cary. in my opinion. if your going to wait and get a gun built. do not just have a base gun modified.

start out with a national match frame/slide .(oversized) caspian ect. and DO IT RIGHT.

I concur with c.rod. If your going to wait and are in no hurry for it, go for a nice frame and slide and build up from there. Mine is a build-up from a Caspian slide and frame sent directly to my smith. I changed the slide on my current 1911 with a Caspian one and you can't believe how exact the dimensions are. From my blueprint measurements, the slide measured to the exact dimensions. Way cleaner lines and finish than my old slide and even tightened my slide to frame fit. My thought was, if it's going to be a full-house custom, I was going to choose the best parts out there to make it. You'll definitely save a few hundred dollars from paying for a complete base gun with parts your smith is going to replace anyway.

Welcome to the custom club and keep us posted on your new acquisition.

smiths, correct me if im wrong. but isnt it "accepted" that a gun that is built on oversized frame/slide "should" be a better/more accurate pistol? since your not trying to modify something that has already been built to shoot.(milspec ect.)

not saying that a base gun cant be accurate ect.

but imho its like taking a brand new harley davidson to jesse james and telling him to build you a 100k bike out of the harley. yeah, it can be done , but why,when you can have a "custom" from the ground up...

c.rod,

I feel the same way, but you will find that many people prefer a name brand gun, especially a Colt, to build on. Some like tradition, others the resale value a Colt brings, and some go for the historical value. Heck, I've had Colts built up just because I liked the roolmarks compared to other guns... same goes for my Springfield Mils-Spec. I chose that over Caspian parts for two reasons alone: 1) I already had the base gun and didn't want to go through the hassle of selling it to get Caspian Parts 2) I think the simple one-line rollmarks on the Springfield Mil-Spec are the best looking ones around aside from the OLD Colts (1920s - 1960s). The guns I have built on Caspian frames and slides are far and away the best feeling and cycling guns I own, but, if I were to resell them at some point, I would have a hard time getting my money out of them, or anywhere near, unless I sold them to a knowledgable shooter who was looking for exactly what I had.

You really can't go wrong either way. A good builder can turn a sour Colt or Springfield (or a good new one for that matter) into a work of art. Starting with oversized sets ensures you'll have the best possible slide to frame fit without peening or squeezing, and generally the pin hole specs will be dead on, so that can save time and expense. It all boils down to "what are you looking for?" My opinion... find WHO you want to build your gun FIRST. Discuss the project with them and ask what THEY prefer. That way you will get exactly what you want all the while allowing the builder to do the best job possible on their preferred parts.

Hope that helped. Anyone care to interject?

Good luck, and GOD Bless.

~Jim Keeney

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"I'd rather die on my feet than keep living on my knees." - Emiliano Zapata, Mexican Revolutionary

Frame/slide set vs. base gun is to a large degree a matter of personal preference for the smith. Jim made a great point with :
Many smiths build very fine pistols on OS frame/slide sets and there is nothing wrong with that at all. IMHO, they are not the great panacea to custom smithing. I have tried or examined nearly every available aftermarket frame out there; they are far from perfect and all have their own sets of issues, some much worse than others. Similarly, base guns are not perfect either. The smith has to decide which set of battles he prefers to fight, and what his overall philosophy is regarding what he puts his name on.

Depending on the smith, a custom pistol can be built on a new production Colt that is every bit the equal, in some cases superior to, a typical build on a kit. Some pick up a genuine Colt and feel there's a certain 'soul' to it, while others could not care less.

So back to Jim's point. Choose the smith whose style, etc. reflect what you want. Then let him build on what he prefers and let him stand behind his work. You will both be happier in the end!

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Stan Chen Customs
http://www.chencustoms.com

It would seem that most covered things pretty well.

Terry Peters, again you're right on target with the way things work.

It's a fact that for the price of patience you can get just about any of these fine gentlemens workmanship at a bargain but you're buying someone else's idea of the perfect gun(used).

The same can be said for the small house production guns.

Very few of the higher end guns are abused and then sold.

They're safe queens that were fired a few times and someone realised that the gun wasn't the problem with accuracy or the owners tastes changed or they've been bitten by another gun and need the cash to make the new dream happen and the guns are sold in LNIB condition.

The ones that are abused will likely be kept forever because the owner has developed a relationship to the gun.

I've got a Box stock Gold Cup Trophy that will never leave. It's not the most expensive gun I own but it is the gun my Dad shot. Only worth a million bucks to me. Everybody else would call it $700.00 max.


In short, do some hunting, even in the classifieds section of this forum. I'll bet you can see very few worn out guns for sale.

To answer your question about it being worth it. Is a Pure AKC bred Lab really worth more than a Lab mix from your neighbor with the same temperament? Depends on what you wanna do with it huh?