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Mustang,

I will jump in here on a couple of your comments.

First, Bill thinks that the Springfield GI model is a very solid gun and perfect for a build-up.

Second, the ejection port was opened up in the leading edge to ensure that a live round would eject cleanly when clearing the pistol. I have had a couple of 1911's where the nose of the bullet would bind on the forward edge of the ejection port. This invites all sorts of problems to include the possibility of a detonation if the primer contacts the ejector.

The stippling was chosen mainly for cost. Bill (C&S) was attempting to keep the cost down as much as possible and still provide a 100%, reliable, hard use 1911. I think he did a great job.

I am due to get both Tridents back to me right after SHOT Show for an article. Stay tuned for more photos.

Rob

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We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. George Orwell

Thanks Rob. Very cool indeed!

My input on the stipling was that I wan't the weapon to be a bit "old school", reflecting the basic necessities for what it was intended to do. The front strap needed something, but I wasn't convinced checkering was the answer. Checkering on my guns has accumulated rust, dust, sand, rubber, leather and skin. It has also eaten my clothing and messed up the crowns on other pistols in a gun box. The stipling can still have grip tape applied over it if so desired. In fact, you can change the grip tape to which ever material and grip texture you want as the situation warrants. Underneath you still have a reasonably sticky surface to control the weapon with via the stipling, which is also easier on clothing and such.

Opening the ejection port with a bullet nose relief was important to me. Evry time you walk in a DFAC with a cocked and locked hammer some youngster (or 2 dozen of them) tell you that you're hammer is back, as though it is a bad thing. Can you imagine the knee jerk ban of 1911 cocked and locked carry if a round went off because it was bobbled into the ejector at the clearing barrel? Weapons get loaded and unloaded a lot overseas. I just wanted to be sure that a full size cartridge made it clear of the e-port everytime.

Similarly, (and I'm surprised no one has asked about it , yet) we added the red and white "Fire" and "Safe" indicator dots to be able to bring some young soldier up to speed rapidly, in case the weapon needed to be handed off to someone with little to no exposure with the 1911.

Someone asked about the knife in the pictures. The blade that is fully visable is Prototype #1 of the "Hell Toad" by Mad Dog knives.

Frogman

Frogman:

Were the hammer and sear coated ? If so, what accommodations were made in terms of sear hook heights, etc., if any ?
Are there any pictures of the finished parts before being bead blasted ?

_________________
No good deed goes unpunished.

Frogman,

Thanks for the reply. I couldn't agree more with you on the checkering. I've been a big fan of "skate tape" for years, going back to when Mark Krebs machined slots on the front straps of his Pointman for the tape. Works great and like you said, you can get different textures and easily replaced.

I think the indicator is something we've seen on a Larry Vickers model made by Nighthawk. I can say that when I saw it back then I thought, "what's that for? If it's locked it's pretty easy to tell, I wouldn't be looking for any dot." But, of course, if young guys would questiona cocked hammer as being unsafe on a 1911, I could see the red dot being needed.

Thanks for the clarification on the knife.

The whole package is wickedly cool! Thanks again!

The hammer and sear are coated with the FailZero nickel boron and lightly dressed on the Powers Jig before final assembly (and then function tested and fired). The internal surface of the barrel is not coated with FailZero.

I have one of the Nighthawk Vickers guns and saw the functionality of the "fire dots". In this era most of our service members are familiar with weapon systems that incorporate red and white dots as fire and safe indicators (and sometimes color coordinated pictograms). Since the dots are familiar a modern soldier should be able to grasp the basic operating system of the Trident in no time flat.

Frogman

The more I read on this pistol, the more impressed I am by concept and execution. I am surprised we don't see more 1911's with the red/white - safe/fire indicator.

In Afghanistan I carried an M11, in Iraq the M9. Dust has (and always will be) an issue, especially with the Beretta's open slide. I am very fond of the 1911 platform and wish the services would re-adopt it.

I'm not disagreeing with you on maintenance but that is a leadership issue, not a systemic issue. My soldiers knew how to operate their weapons systems with the best of them and maintained them like their life counted on them (because it did). You are very correct about the pistol selection too. All the conventional troops carried M9s, host country police and higher ranking military carried Glock 17s and the only 1911s that I saw were carried by members of the A team that was located with us.

Being with the Riverines (conventional) our guys are a bit better about weps maintenance and handling than typical blue side Navy. My one disagreement with you is on the maintenance piece. The 1911 was developed so a line company grunt PFC could field strip and clean/maintain it. My attraction to the 1911 platform has always been the robust nature of the pistol itself, as well as the ergonomics, it just fits the hand better than the M9 (at least for me). Where I have seen quite a few problems with cracked slides, gouged feed ramps and bent guide rods, at least on earlier M9's, The 1911 excells as a "beast" in the field.

Please keep in mind that I have no issue with Berretta and have enjoyed shooting quite a few in the Berretta pistol line up.

Don't get me wrong fellas. I think training is obviously a big piece of this, but keep in mind the larger demographic that we're dealing with here. You're always going to have a percentage of service personnel who will maintain the weapon the way it should be maintained. You're also going to have a decent percentage who won't. Subsequently you end up with the need for a weapon that is forgiving to the latter population. The m9, the Glock, etc are much more forgiving (at least in my experiences) with maintenance than the 1911. From there we can dive into the work required to keep the 1911 running properly, and even the general cost of the guns themselves. I think it's safe to assume that a well sorted 1911, like the excellent one brought forth here by Frogman, is a $1k plus gun. Every serious 1911 user I've run into, from Larry Vickers to Hilton Yam pretty much seem to agree that a proper duty-use 1911 isn't going to be cheap. So now you're looking at getting a larger appropriation from Congress, not just for the gun, but for the maintenance and parts infrastructure you'll need to service them properly. For SOF forces, that's not a difficult hurdle to clear, but once you try to push that out to conventional forces, it gets tricky. Add to that Beretta, Sig, Glock, H&K and just about every other handgun maker lining up for a possible bid protest if DOD decides to buy a more expensive gun over their guns, and it's a world of pain waiting to happen. Not saying it can't be done, but definitely a long shot.

Personally, I'd love to see us go back. I don't know that it would be an easy decision to walk away from my issue gun overseas (Glock 17 or 19), or that I'd want to give up the capacity to be honest, but being issued a well sorted out 1911 like the Trident would definitely make me consider the option. Right now I can request permission to carry a 1911 or some other gun overseas if I want, but the different ammo requirement and lack of availability of parts in the field have resulted in me just sticking with the issued Glock. I was hoping to try and corner a MARSOC or Force Recon armorer to see if they are still running the 1911 and their experiences fielding them in a combat environment, but never did track one down on my last deployment.

Frog, sorry to go off-track with your thread. That's a good looking gun. Enough so that I'm seriously considering ordering one from C&S or spec'ing one for build by John Harrison or Dave Erickson. Well thought out, and I'm definitely liking what I'm reading about the finish on the gun.

Beautiful gun. Very well thought out. Though I don't cotton to speed chutes, this is the first time I've read of their 'issues'.

The conversation about the 1911 v the new plastic guns brought to mind the following I found a while back:

"Is the 1911 .45 an outdated design?"

Of course the 1911 is an outdated design. It came from an
era when weapons were designed to win fights, not to avoid
product liability lawsuits. It came from an era where it was
the norm to learn how your weapon operated and to practice
that operation until it became second nature, not to design
the piece to the lowest common denominator. It came from
an era in which our country tried to supply its fighting men
with the best tools possible, unlike today, when our fighting
men and women are issued hardware that was adopted because
of international deal-making or the fact that the factory is in
some well-connected congressman's district.

Yes, beyond any shadow of a doubt, the 1911 IS an outdated
design....and that's exactly what I love about it.
~~ Rosco S. Benson


I'd like to THANK you guys for your service, experience and insight.
May you come home as healthy as when you left. Thank You !!!

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If You're Not the Lead Dog, The View Never Changes.

Cypher1911,

Well put. One of the things I really like about the Trident is that it is not too tight. While I really like the "best grade" guns, they would not be my choice for harsh environments. The "rattle traps" tend to run, and run, and run. It's cool that pistol will shoot a 1" group at 25 yards but will it run after being dropped in the muck or after having 300 rounds put through it without cleaning, or in the rain when all of the CLP has been washed away?

As much as I love the 1911, if you go to an IDPA or ISPC match, it is the 1911's that bind up more than any other platform. Common problems I see include lack of lubrication, poor reloads, improperly maintained magazines and, in some cases, just sloppy poorly made pistols. All that being said, I will take a properly made and maintained 1911.

As a wise man once said, "A Glock ain't got no soul!"

Rob

_________________
We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. George Orwell

Thanks for the kind words, fellas. I hope a few of you get to handle one at SHOT. There will be more of them cranked out shortly after SHOT.

I'll have one in Virginia Beach for a while doing some endurance testing.

Frogman

You might consider if a Techwell USA would properly address the pinching magwell issue. It attaches on the sides, using AlumaGrips (which come machined to accept the attachment lugs of the magwell).

You can see them about half way down the page here: http://lundestudio.com/2008SHOTShow/

http://www.techwellusa.com/



And, just to beat home the forward ejection port bullet nose profile mod. (I have the same on my C&S gunsmithing class gun, and Bill gave the same reasoning.) ... We had a local shooter (without the mod) who had an ejector fire just a few months ago. He took shrapnel in the neck from it. The EMT's came and decided to life flight him due to the location of the wounds in the neck. If life flight comes out to the shooting range due to a "GSW"...it is going to make the local news.

Just got back from SHOT. I can tell you that the Trident received a lot of attention from both fans of C&S and from some very serious people. The later expressed a lot of interest in the design as well as the Fail Zero finish. I think that Bill has a great opportunity to help our warriors have a better fighting pistol. It is kind of neat to know you are holding a pistol that one day, in the near future, may in the sand box taking out bad guys.

I hope to have a sample for an article in the next several weeks. You will see the detailed photos here first.

Rob

_________________
We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. George Orwell

Frogman, I'm back at the Creek let me know.

Cheers,

Josh

I'm back, also (with the Vegas flu, no less). I'll have another Trident shortly and will give you a ring when it comes in so you can check it out.

Frogman

I've been interested in this pistol ever since it came across the wire, but after talking to the folks at C&S it seems that its an all or none deal, meaning I can't tweak it to fit my needs. This is kind of disappointing as this seems to be the perfect platform for a fighting 1911. While I understand that it is geared toward the .mil crew, I don't claim to be nor have I ever been an "operator" of anything other than the occassional power tool or kitchen appliance. I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. As a result, whats going to work for them might not be needed, or even practical for me.

In all seriousness, I really didn't expect to hear this from C&S especially since the alterations I was looking for actually minimized labor i.e. no front cocking serrations, no ambi thumb safety, etc. Do they build 100% custom pistols as well or is it package or nothing?

I got to get an up close and personal look at this pistol while attending LAV's class a ealier this month. A true fighting pistol, beautifully executed. The fail zero finish is amazing. Thanks again Frogman for your assistance at the class.

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No Piece, No Peace

STAGE 2

C&S will build any pistol to your specifications and give it any finish you want, to include Fail Zero. The only difference is that is will not be a "Trident" and won't have the logo. So, get you a GI or Mil Spec and have fun building you own "fighting gun"!

Frogman and C&S have an agreement that all Tridents will be built to one set of specifications.

Rob


Check out the preview link at http://www.tactical-life.com/online/com ... nt-45-acp/

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We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. George Orwell

Hmm, if they would have just said this in the email, specifically the part about the agreement, that would have cleared things up quite a bit. That said, I'm thrilled that they can build my version of this pistol. Logos and advertising have never been my thing, especially when they don't apply. That said, as I said above, most of the changes that I'm looking to do are aesthetic, so whoever frogman is, he definately knows his way around a 1911. Kudos to him.

This pistol makes a lot of sense for a fighting handgun. Was the use of a rail version for a weapon mounted light ever considered for this package?

gj47

FYI - The one option Bill and Frogman will do is a Dawson rail.

Rob

_________________
We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. George Orwell

I saw that gun in one of my latest gun magazines. Sounds like a really sharp gun.

Combat Handguns. That's the magazine I saw the article in. Good read about a great gun.

The option list includes the Dawson Rail, a shortened/ shaved right side ambi-safety lever for the excellent Crimson Trace Laser Grips, and either a Heine Ledge or Warren Tactical rear sight (we plan on putting 50 lpi serrations on the forward edge of the rear sight).

Frogman

Once again, let me say that I think this is a very well thought out pistol.

I like everything about it except for the front slide serrations.

Too bad Fail Zero has already posted on their site that they will no longer do individually owned guns. Seems like we went through this with Ionbond.

_________________
No good deed goes unpunished.

Hey Guys,

Seems like the Trident is going to have some long legs. Bill is getting a lot of calls. A second gun went to Clint Smith who is writing it up for American Handgunner. I look forward to seeing his take on it.

With regard to Fail Zero, I think that is will become a standard option for any gun that C&S builds or hammers on. So, it is not just reserved for the Trident.

Frogman, hope all is well with you and the Mrs.

Rob

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We sleep safely in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm. George Orwell

Very interested in the Fail Zero finish. Looking foward to more testing on the guns it's applied to. Sounds like some really cool stuff guys.