ltwguns.com

I will be posting a thread about a 9X23 5" 1911 pretty soon that is in the "wrap up" stage. I have been shooting it quite a bit in the last week; this is the first 9X23 I've done in a while and the first two-barreled gun in years, the other barrel being, of course, 9X19. Since it's been a while I was taken aback again by the intensity of the 9X23 cartridge. It makes 9mm +P and even .38 Super +P seem wimpy... really wimpy. For the hell of it I loaded a mag alternating .38S +P and 9X23 (Winchester 124 soft points). /pop/BANG/pop/BANG/pop.....or, according to SAAMI, 37K/55K/37K/55K/37K (PSI). I really want to do some chronographing but just can't take the time. But according again to SAAMI, the 9X23 at 55,000 PSI is pushing a 124-grain bullet 360 FPS faster than the same bullet in 9mm (non +P).

Some comparative numbers from the SAAMI website, quoting the "Mean Average Pressure" specs (MAP):
9mm 35,000 PSI
9mm +P 38,500
9mm +P+ not spec'd by SAAMI
.357 Magnum 35,000
.40 S&W 35,000
.38 Super +P 36,500
10mm Auto 37,500
.357 SIG 40,000
9X23 55000
9X23 +P, thank goodness there is none!

9X23 appears to have about 100FPS over .357 SIG. That's good I guess, and 9X23 having a not-.40-based case, one would have greater magazine capacity with the 9X23, but 55K vs / 40K probably means something in terms of longevity (especially if we're in the duty guns for issue / agency budget context). Breech thrust is a little less with the SIG round. Part of me wants to say the .357 SIG should never have existed since its performance could be matched by a less-intense 9X23 loading that would also maybe mitigate any durability concerns (but my understanding is that even .357 SIG is hard on Glock and SIG pistols). But I'll bet the people that really know the deep science of ballistics and all that had some reasons for it (and, yes, the industry does rather like bringing out a new caliber once in a while). No doubt this has all been debated at great length by proponents of each caliber. For myself, both are too intense for a carry gun and I have not really been a fan or user of either beyond shooting other peoples' guns and customizing some in both calibers.

There was quite a bit of extra measuring and effort to fit these two barrels so that they both A) pointed in the same direction, and B) brought the slide to a stop at the exact same spot so that the rear face of the slide where it matches the frame is perfect with both barrels. "B" was pretty easy, "A" less-so but the two barrels have virtually the same point of impact at 28 yards, so the user will not have to remember to aim 6" low left with one or the other of them. My efforts probably didn't hurt but I think there must be a certain amount of luck involved too-- with different calibers, loads and bullet weights, intense recoil and mild recoil, there are a lot of other things that have significant effect on POI. This gun, shooting 9X23. .38 Super, and a wide variety of 9mm loads, is really good about putting them all in the same area. I never thought to even check until both were fitted, but one is a left hand twist and the other a right! I'm glad I didn't realize it until after shooting because I'd have bet there was "no way" it would allow both barrels to share a POA. Or.... did the LH/RH dif save the day....?

Is this the culmination of the "My first step in fitting a ramped barrel" post you made earlier?

No, that was something a while ago. On the 9X23 I could not at the moment get the 9X19 barrel in a ramped config so I just un-ramped the 9X23.

Been out for a while. Took a rare and very nice long trip with a young pard to go see the Cody Firearms Museum in Cody, WY and the John Browning Museum in Ogden, UT. Both are highly recommended.... must-see collections, really, for any kind of gun enthusiast. The JMB is smaller but all JMB, and oddly, nary a 1911 to be seen. It seems they have done some renovating and they were not completely re-set-up yet. We were the first ones in for the day; I think they let us in a little early because they got tired of us scratching at the door like a couple of hungry dogs, which we were. Fascinating, fascinating stuff though, like-- shop prototypes of the Model 97, the Remington 11, the BAR. I mean hand-made models, sawed and filed to shape, and you could see where changes and improvements had been made in the development process by welding, brazing, and silver brazing bits in.

We've all heard it a million times but it is so, so true: John Moses Browning was a genius!

JMB was very well represented at the Cody Museum, too. And-- everyone else, really. Going way, way back. Thousands of guns, many I'm sure most people, like me, never heard of. Many that you look at and say, "that is the most clever, revolutionary thing from that time period", and many hardly made a blip on the radar screen of history. Due, I think, to people who, although they had the best idea, were simply bad business people, or who knows, distracted by other things in life like family, another occupation, booze maybe, or just had some bad breaks. I suspect under captalized people who were good at the drawing board and shop but not good at selling, accounted for some.

Since this year's The Pin Shoot-- successor event to the Second Chance Bowling Pin Shoot-- was cancelled, a friend in South Dakota decided to hold a private event for a small group of friends. As a pin shooting event it was a smashing success, for three days. It was not a weight loss clinic-- lots and lots of great home cooking to include a shrimp boil. I pretty much "don't do shrimp" and I loved it. Coming back through SD we had a chance to do some work around the farm for the local Sheriff. It seems there were hundreds of little mounds with holes in them on a large piece of his grazing land-- these pose a read-deal hazard to his stock. He was most pleased to have us deal with the culprits. I'd say the Sheriff owes us one, but I think we owe him one.

So many very hospitable people on this trip, which is simply the nature of people out that way, including LTW's newest member, Mark Graff and his wife Cheryl, and brother Mark (& Heidi). Cheryl put us up and put up with us. Lots of good eats and "your money's no good here" at the restaurant. AND, while at Mark's I spotted the elusive C.T. and Susan Brian who joined us for dinner, it was nice to catch up with one of LTW's founders and a guy who, although he is my age, started doing guns for a living fifteen years before I did. This gave us a chance to discuss LTW's latest project-- oh yeah, there is a project in the works.

Luck let us happen into a three-day machinegun shoot. More very polite, hospitable people, having good clean only-in-America fun with lots of historic American automatics and others. We fired the M3A1, MP44, M1919A4 (perhaps one that my Mom and Dad made parts for), an M79, MP40, a select-fire AUG, and a Lahti 20mm.

It's a big country. 4200 miles took us through Yellowstone, the Bighorn Mountains, the Black Hills, the Badlands..... what would it take to really know the country, 100,000? 200,000?

Kool! Trip of a lifetime!

It was great seeing you Mr. Ned. Was also wonderful to finally meet your ‘pard’. Be proud. You’ve raised a wonderful young man.

_________________
CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

Ned-
Was great catching up, great to hangout with Valo and you. Need to get together way more often!

_________________
https://www.graffcustom.com/

I'm just back from another week out...... I went to CO to give my two-day AR15 Armorer class to a PD there.

Not my first trip to CO, but on this trip I saw some new territory. I drove it-- 60 hours in the saddle. I just didn't want to have to ship all my stuff out there and then ship it back-- better to have it with me and me with it. Even though I was just a few weeks back from a long trip into the same area, I didn't mind the road trip.

Driving I70 west out of Vail was sheer terror for one such as me, reared on flat land. It was a white-knucking, heart-pounding, adrenalin-dumping couple of hours, like a suicide mission barely survived and attempted again every three seconds. I committed to NOT going back home that way even if it meant going through Mexico and Canada!

Once I got to about Rifle, CO it got more reasonable. Don't get me wrong, it was beautiful 100% of time but it was good getting onto a piece of road that was way less terrifying. Coming down from Rifle the terrain is desert-- but still with mountains. Everything is dry rocks and sand, not much growing. But there is a spot where the Colorado River comes alongside the highway in a low, flat area and it's like a beautiful oasis. In fact, that whole valley is very actively cultivated and there are orchards there. I pulled into Palisade and got some of the best cherries I have ever had-- and we grow them good here in Michigan. When I got out of Palisade and back out onto the highway I realized I was going the wrong way, so when I got to the next exit I pulled off to turn around. Going under the highway I saw a sign that said something about a shooting complex.

I had allowed myself plenty of time to make this long drive; I hurried the first 3/4 of it so that any extra time would be in the 'hood of the class. The last thing I wanted was to have to call my host and tell him I would not be there on time. So as I got closer, and I was now close, I had a lot of time to explore, drive around, maybe do some gold panning.

I never got into the river, but alongside it in Cameo, I found GOLD and I want to tell everyone where!

The Cameo Shooting and Education Complex. I stumbled onto this facility and my jaw is still on the floor. How about 2,000 acres of Sporting Clays, archery, 20 bays for rifles and pistols including, I think 13 that are for organized events only-- like the IDPA Nationals that were going to be held here, unfortunately cancelled. If that doesn't do it for you, how about a 2000 yard rifle range? And how about shooting benches for same that are plasma-cut from 2" thick steel? How about in a couple weeks, Hornady is there putting on their Precision Rifle Steel Challenge?

Everything about this place is state of the art. All bays have WiFi that is wide and deep (however that is actually stated). Yet to be done, a proshop-- maybe something like a Cabela's.... maybe a brewpub.

How about the whole place was put up by..... the State of Colorado, with some federal funding that came out of the 10% Federal Excise Tax levied on all guns and ammo?

I can't believe I'd never heard of CSEC but it was only started a couple years ago and has grown by leaps and bounds just in the last 6 moths-- and it ain't done yet. I think it is or will be the premier shooting facility in the country and we'll be seeing a lot of high-profile events going on there-- check it out:

https://cpw.state.co.us/thingstodo/Page ... mplex.aspx

Walt Proulx and his staff were very hospitable; Chris Miller took me for a tour of the place on one of the 4-wheelers that are available to rent.

My friend, if you thought I 70 west out of Vail was a driving experience, you should have headed south out of Grand Junction to Durango.

That whole Western Slope was Susan and my stomping/motorcycling ground for many years.

_________________
CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

Yeah....no.

I have been over Wolf Creek Pass..... not in winter at least but I was driving a big ol' UHaul. I don't remember it being as bad as west of Vail. Some years ago Stan Chen took us from Silverton to Cinnamon Pass, that was hairy at times...... Stan delighting in us flatlanders being scared as hell. 10,000-plus feet (then and last week around Leadville)? Still catching my breath. I like it here at 800 or so where we have oxygen in the air

I was driving west to the Steel Challenge one year, when I hit the long downslope on the west side of things. I was past Grand Junction and in Utah by then, and my little ford Ranger, stuffed with guns and ammo for the 5-gun championships was doing warp 3. downshifting and brakes were only able to keep me just under 80.

A State trooper followed me all the way down, until it was flat enough for him to turn on the lights, and me pull over. Once I explained things, he was OK. "I figured you didn't try to run when I cam up behind you, and were just on the down grade. I wondered if I was going to have to report a crash."

I've gone faster, but those times it was by choice.

On another trip, I did indeed go south from Grand Junction, towards Montrose. then East on state 50, past Gunnison park. Another Ranger truck full of guns and gear expedition.

Give me flat, straight roads line with corn on both sides. You make a mistake, you live to pick corn out of the grill. Some of that mountain driving I'll bet there are cars at the bottom with skeletons in them, not yet discovered!

On the June trip that included the stop in Casper, WY, we were having breakfast at a highly recommended diner on our way out of town. When the people in the booth across from us got up to pay, I noticed that the gentleman resembled John Farnam-- but it was sort of a 3/4 view. I watched him go to the cashier and pay the bill. Still having less than a full side profile, I still thought, "he reminds me of John, but....". I hadn't seen John since a police conference in Detroit or Chicago, maybe 4-5 years back. Then I looked at the lady he was with, and it was, for sure, Vicki Farnam. So we got up and said hello and did a little bit of catching up.

When I got home, I checked the DTI site ( https://defense-training.com/ ) and found that in August, John and Vicki were going to be at my local club, as they have been doing for about 25 years now. I promptly signed up my wife for Vicki's 2-day Defensive Handgun for Women class. John's class for the same weekend was Urban Rifle, which I would have loved to take but-- I had to choose one or the other, and I thought the class for Dianna was the better investment. So long story short, we had dinner with the Farnams over the weekend and then they visited the shop on their way out of town Monday AM.

John and Vicki have been doing what they do for such a long time that some people assume they may no longer be doing it. But-- they still are, very much so, and have a full schedule of bringing their goodness to the whole country. They remain deeply committed to getting the knowledge out there. Their continued enthusiasm is inspiring, and their energy impressive. Never mind that as trainers, instructors, well, let's just call them what they are: educators, there are few if any who have the years, the decades, of experience. They have mastered life on the road to be able to offer J. Q. Citizen the opportunity to be safer and more competent and effective with whatever his defensive tool of choice is.... and J.Q. is not the only beneficiary of this reservoir of knowledge and experience. The Farnams also train local, state, and federal agencies as well as our military.

If a person had to choose one class to take, I would just say that I get the temptation to go with who has the best beard and the most tattoos . I am absolutely not poking fun here-- there are a lot of good, what I call, traveling trainers out there (and some have beards and tattoos, cool.). BUT, I think that with a great many of them, if you could really break it down, and do a DNA analysis of their curriculum, you would find that a lot of it originated with John Farnam. 'Nuff said.

I've had a little more summer to myself than usual with our Patrol Rifle classes being cancelled. These are state-funded and sometimes the state funding is subsidized by Homeland Security. I enjoy the hell out of these, meeting 200-ish police officers a year and being in a position where I can be of service to them, which I find very rewarding. Patrick Sweeney is part of the staff too. These classes are a great venue for Patrick and me to wring out this or that product, maybe pass it around to the students during the week to get their impressions.... and the ranges we work at are great locations for article pictures.

I always enjoy telling my non-police friends how very "ordinary" these students are. They take me as one of them, they accept me, which is an honor that the "me" of twenty-five years ago could only have dreamed of-- to hang with these guys and become friends with a great many of them. So I will tell you what I tell my non-police friends-- that these students, these cops, are more like the rest of us than most of the rest of us would ever guess. The only thing different about them is their extraordinary commitment to doing something to benefit society as a whole. This includes seeing things, doing things and having things done to them that would be pure poison to most of the rest of us. Most of them have something special that allows them to endure this and somehow-- maintain normalcy. I could never do it.

I hear them talk amongst themselves, unguardedly. I have NEVER, in twenty-plus years, heard one brag about "getting over" on citizens, about using their position for personal benefit, about screwing with people for fun. I tell you that to a man, those that I've heard talk, have talked about wanting to be good public servants, about respecting peoples' civil rights, about wanting to help. I've never heard one brag about shooting someone, although many have had to do it. I've never met one who thought it was a good thing. I've heard discussion about, instead, extreme restraint, choosing not to shoot, even at their own risk. Some got shot or stabbed for it. Often there is extreme bravery and sacrifice, although it never comes through via an officer saying "I was extremely brave", never.

I believe I am the first person to ever pin-deactivate the grip safety on a Hi-Power.



No, really. Because I added a grip safety to a BHP that I have been using as a test bed. Don't judge me, it was an experiment! It worked but.... not like I had really hoped, so I pinned it.

Also a beavertail that I decided not to swoop-out on top, and I modified the rear of the slide. I never liked the bulging, protruding forehead look of that part of the BHP. I moved it forward and leaned it forward, at the same angle as the cocking serrations. This is far from done, might never be done, but a few other things are in the works with it-- as I can find time, of which I have almost none at this time!

This is what it sounds like in my shop:


......75% of the time anyway. Bit of a fan.

The rest of the time it's something good on Sirius XM, when I have time to mess with it I might try something new but usually something rockish/blues-is / rockabilly, and always a helping of BBC News or something else international.

I know this is a forum about 1911’s, but I’m pretty excited about a new “thing” for me, a project of a different type. I’m no car mechanic but I have had my share of dirt bikes apart and fixed the odd lawn mower over the years. Suddenly I find myself working on a 1948 Willys. You can tell it’s a Willys—I mean, it’s pressed right into the hood and tailate:


The floor is awfully rusted out. A major hurdle, but…. I used to be pretty darned good at gas welding and pretty sure I can get it back. But there is more air than floor here:

The good news is, I don’t think there is any part of an old Jeep you can’t buy new (mostly repros / newly manufactured of course). This old girl which has been in the family since 1952 or 1955, is going to get a lot of new stuff. The big shocker…? It’s very reasonably priced. This is a weld-in, pre-formed floor panel, $139.00:

The motor would not turn over. The Willys has a crank starter, pretty handy at the moment because we may be a year away from even putting a battery in it, but by crank it was no dice. We put it in gear and bumped it back and forth and broke it loose. Then, cranking it with the plugs out, I “tested” compression by putting a finger over the spark plug hole while the motor was cranked by hand. #4 had no compression and no vacuum. Took the head off to see what might be seen….. the head itself can stand some cleaning but is in good condition:

A replacement gas tank is $169.00. The existing one, after sitting perhaps 30 years (but in a shed and at least not out in the weather), was full of rust and has at least one hole in it. The gas cap is rusty but I think still serviceable:

A MOST worthwhile project!!

And I can guess who your chief first assistant in charge of rust removal, miscellaneous cleaning, parts procurement and general goferism is going to be!

Give it a thread of its own!

The family Willys is certainly worthy of resurrection and oh yeah, perhaps would be a fun(?) father & son project; gosh it would be a blast rolling down old logging roads and trails in that heirloom!

Now on the the subject of 1911's, that blue slide beauty hanging out in the Willys, is WOW.... WAY BEYOND STUNNING! You knocked that out of the park, Ned!

The 19....? Oh that! Yeah it's OK I guess That will have its own thread when I get some time.

Dude... that gun is awesome... love the squared guard.

Don't know anything about this "Willy" fella you speak of but the gun is way cool.

_________________
Heirloom Precision
http://www.heirloomprecision.com

Thanks.

Anyone note the Crown Royal face mask? A friend's wife made it for me. Could be interesting getting pulled over with that on.

To anyone visiting LTW, if you decide to sign up, we ask that you create a username having two parts and a space between. We are in a war with spam bots right now (I just deleted 8000 spambot "applicants") and for the time being we need two-part usernames to help differentiate real people from the cowardly BS-ers.

They are so irritating but..... it felt really good deleting 8000 in one whack, I'll admit. I just wish there was a way to send a Taser pulse to each one's keyboard

Black Hills Ammunition's red-box loading of the 77 Sierra Match King is some of the very best 5.56 factory loaded ammo out there, especially when you're trying to make little groups at 500Y or bang steel at distance. A guy having two cases of it right now would count himself lucky and the last thing he would do would be to blast it into the dirt from 6 feet without even aiming at anything.

But that's what I did. Talk about guilty feelings! It was very tempting to replace the BHA ammo with something cheap and crappy but that would have skewed the experiment. It was part of a test that will be described in detail in the not too distant future but that's all I can say for now..... that my name is Ned and I am a premium ammo waster.

While out for classes last week, one evening I toured some of the rusted-out parts of Detroit. Not the high-crime areas necessarily, just some deserted, derelict suburbs. One in particular has the distinction of being the most-polluted zip code in Michigan. There is a residential area where there are five kinds of houses-- abandoned, burned out, collapsing, torn down, and-- occupied. As I understand it, the city is taking this area property by property for a big project and once an owner dies or vacates, the city acquires it-- and takes it down. You can see that it once was a pleasant place. The remaining residents make a remarkable effort to keep their places up and looking nice..... very resilient.

You know about AA, right Ned? Ammo Anonymous? It's been around for decades, helping out people who indiscriminately waste ammo.

The first step is to remove the temptation - - - just get the ammo out of your house. And . . . well, I wouldn't do this for just anybody . . . I'll be a standup guy and help you out. Just send all your ammo to me, and I'll make sure you're not tempted to fall into that tailspin again.

And I'm sure you have lots of other friends just like me . . .

Ned. I am a Black Hills fan and use it a lot.

I am a big fan of when you want to reach out and touch someone. Always send the very best.

Been selling off all of my POST Brady, Post Y2K, Obamaniac, and whatever panic ammo that I got when others panicked and then they had to sell when the spouse found out. Using that money to build the Corona Zombie Rioting Apocalypse ammo. Still have two 1000 round cases of that 5.56 you spoke of paid from from the post Obamaniac panic. Also just picked up 1000 rounds of Black Hills 70 Grain Hornady GMX paid for from current panic sales.

A few years ago got 5K of the Remanufactured and down to 1K for fun. Never an issue as there was issue with the inexpensive other brands. Although very very few bad rounds but there were issues and nothing more to be said there.

Remember the words of the retail master who is still in business.

"Cheap, Fast, Good" Pick Two. Or the words of .............."Remember Grasshopper, discounts are always for a reason and your undying gratitude does not pay overhead".................... That applies with ammunition also.

That Crown Royal Face Mask ROCKs. Can't wait for a "mask shamer" to see it.

_________________
Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters

Do your research but you get what you pay for front end or back end
http://www.pt-partners.com
@ptpartners_tx

On the left, 8mm Nambu....WWII Japanese pistol ammo.

On the right, 9mm Nambu. Yankee Imperialists appropriated the design and call it .357 SIG


and.... everyone has seen the new coins, right?

Thats just braggin'! I assume Micro TIG. I'm jelly... No where around here to teach that.

My laser guy.

Up until the last few years I've been a regular at one of the 250 Nationals Motocross series. The day before the big pro event they have vintage racing, where guys are using motocrossers from the late 60's and 70's. Well if there was a "vintage class" license for deer hunting, I think we'd have qualified. Just back from the family deer camp, a cabin in Michigan's UP that is truly remote. My hunting partner used a CMP M1 Garand (Sept. 1942); I used one of the favorites of 1920's-and-30'sgangsters and G-Men alike, a Model 1907 Winchester in .351 WSL. You can't buy ammo for it, you make it. Pictured on the camp's 1936 Kalamazoo wood cook stove, which we do use.