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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:41 am 
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I appreciate the feedback and agree with running regular (steel) firing pins with extra power firing pin springs. The reason I ask the Department I am retired from mandated Ti firing pins in any 1911 carried on duty regardless of manufacturer. What the majority did was use the Ti firing pin for annual quals and inspections, I'm not saying we didn't follow the rules but we stretched them a bit. The SA that I carried was done over by Don Williams and he chose to use a standard firing pin and extra power spring so I did also except for one day a year.

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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Fri Apr 16, 2021 5:07 am 
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I'll do some more testing on this.... probably. It's been done and done by qualified people to a higher level than I'm able to take the time for but I'd like to do a little more. In the test I read they did also go between Ti FP's and standard as well as standard vs / XP FP springs. I need to re-read the report (but it is long and detailed).

The other pic above, the two firing pins..... the Swartz system again. There were two of them in class and both had "the issue"...... sort of the regular statistical distribution.... only a sample of two that day but put with the many I have tested they fit the trend: more than half of them have it and of those that do, half have it "real bad", the other half, the FP will, most of the time, bang its way past the firing pin block and fire upon pressing the trigger. The damaged FP shown is from a gun having about 30,000 rounds on it. It has given its one owner unexplained (until now) misfires and the interference between the FP and the block has-- apparently-- caused or partially caused this damage to the blocking shoulder of the FP. I have not seen one like this before; I'm assured it's a one-owner gun and has not been fiddled with-- which I believe. I might expect some wear from the firing pin block returning to the lock position while the parts are in recoil, and maybe some oscillation of the both the FP and the block during the cycle / when the slide returns.

In any case this system, well, if you have a Kimber Series II I highly recommend checking it. The fix is tedious but I have an idea for an easier way to fix it and leave the safety functional. Functional but properly timed. You know, like it should have been from the factory. I always wondered about this system-- again, wishing there was more time to test everything-- and wishing for my own high-speed video setup-- dropping a Swartz-equipped pistol muzzle first, wouldn't the grip safety also move forward under inertia, moving the FB block out of the way, enabling an inertia-firing? Or would the FP already have bounced off the block when (if) the grip safety moved forward? Seems like it could be dependent upon how much spring there was behind both the FP and the grip safety.


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Mon Apr 26, 2021 8:22 pm 
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Polyoxymethylene...... this white substance can be very addictive. Once you've tried it, you want to make everything out of it.

Image

.....also known as.... Delrin. Bowling pin season is coming up again. Delrin is about half the weight of aluminum. So, a compensator for a bowling pin gun made from Delrin could be..... twice as big, right?


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Wed Apr 28, 2021 8:01 am 
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can't wait to see that!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Mon May 03, 2021 8:05 pm 
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Here 'tis. I'm putting the rest of it in another thread, ".50 GI gets outfitted for pin shooting" ( https://forum.ltwguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9890 )

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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Tue May 04, 2021 3:09 pm 
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Delrin is tough stuff. Back when I worked in the truck parts division of G.M. they used it for king pin bushings on their 12,000 lb front axles on the class 8 trucks.

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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Tue May 11, 2021 7:18 pm 
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Looks like it's holding up sofar. I mean if it didn't break off in the first hundred rounds it just might go another hundred ;-)

As a moldmaker's apprentice I leaned how to polish injection molds by hand-stoning. We had some gizmos too where you could mount a stone and the stone reciprocated mechanically via a flexible shaft, but then the ultrasonic machines came out. And wow they were good-- you can't see or feel the stone move, the stroke is so short and fast but wow, do they take out the tool marks. You can get over $five grand into one easily. Mine is a little different, it runs on air. It has a longer stroke and cycles slower but for my application on guns I think it's actually better. Plus, it was a sales sample and the sales guy needed some gun stuff and gun knowledge, so we traded.

Stoning a magwell. The way I do these they would actually not be awful as-milled but I usually stone them up to about a 300, and with a blast the surface finish is all it needs to be and then some. One thing I learned in mold polishing (besides how to catch a few z's while doing it) is that you never know how good a job you've done until you move up to the next finer grit (or two). When the mold cavity had to be given a #1 diamond finish-- that is, a mirror finish-- that's when a person really learns to be thorough. Well getting some milling patterns out of a magwell is not a big deal compared to diamond polishing an automotive exterior mirror shell mold where the part's gonna get chromed (yes, they chrome-plate plastic!), but still it's nice to have a few tools that speed it along without affecting quality.

The inset in the below pic, I have started with a 220 stone and then jumped right to 400, which after just a few strokes showed me a few places where I had to go back in with the 220 (circled). Those spots would have totally disappeared in blasting, but once I knew they were there.... :evil:

The final bit for the day on this was to take it up to 600. I have done a few where I left them polished-- it really looks great-- but it's a lot more work. I might just do it on this one since it's already largely there. The horizontal line between the bottom of the frame and the sear spring tab cut is the joint between the frame and the forward step in the mainspring housing.
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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 11:26 am 
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This week was our first Patrol Rifle class of the year. Out of about 20 officers, I didn't actually count but there must have been at least six AR pistols. Discussion among a few instructors brought out some pro and some con points but as for me I was all pro. Paperwork and wait time is also inconvenient for PD's. Plus SBR's are a no-go when the officer carries a personal AR on duty (in IL). Bonus: more police saying "hell no, you won't take my arm brace".

There were three muzzle brakes, all pinned and welded. I put sleeves on two of them, the third had his own shroud-thing and unlike most it was effective "enough". He had almost $200 into it to get back into the safety zone but still it was louder than standard and somewhat, but not terribly, flashy. Whereas a $10 A1 or A2 flash hider would be the better muzzle device in every way for this application.

It's about impossible to keep track of all the brands and styles of brakes out there, let alone have sleeves on hand to fit everything. The ones that got the sleeve were what looked to me and was described to me as a Battle Comp knock-off and something else that was a two-port brake with a flash hider on the end (!). Both were of a diameter that made the sleeve less than a perfect fit, one had about .020 clearance (BC copy) and the other about .040. On the first, it actually shot very mildly and killed flash effectively despite the short barrel. I checked his ammo and it was AE223 so pretty mild stuff that probably helped. His forward hand got a little sooty due to the slight space along the top of the brake / shroud fit (set screw at top) but he said he never felt heat or air movement. The other one tracked with most brake-with shroud combos I see-- lots of flash, and the flash makes its own, separate, additional noise. THIS one with the .040 clearance on top put out a semi-tremendous and odd shaped flash out the front but also out the back and inside the hand guard. I didn't catch this until an hour into Day Two and was immediately concerned about it but-- the shooter said he didn't notice a thing. This thing did not flash intermittently, it was every single shot and he said up until the end of class that he never saw it or felt it-- so I let it be (and he was one of our better shooters).

I cannot explain why the flash appears to have straight edges. I think it might be an artifact from the lens or how an iPhone video works.

Image

Two sequential frames—big flash out the front followed by a backflash up the hand guard.
I checked: this guy still had all the hair on his knuckles! Weird, huh?
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2021 8:44 pm 
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Strange indeed! Glad that they are pro pistol configured/braced AR. I was not a fan for a very long time, but it has grown on me.


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Wed Jun 02, 2021 7:05 pm 
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Spoonful.

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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 8:16 am 
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The Pin Shoot this year was a lot of fun. A week in some really cute lakeside cabins with good friends; each night it was a different cabin's responsibility to feed the hoard. Some of these guys (not me) are true grill masters. Our Marine Colonel (reserve) brought a Big Green Egg grill and I now know what all the BGE hubbub is about. Everything that comes out of it is cooked to perfection and tastes great, when these guys are cooking. Lunch is served every day at the shoot by the Central Lake, Mi Lions Club and oh, do they do it right.

Oh yeah, and the shoot. Two days of optional "warming up" at the range, like test and tune days at a racetrack. Then five days of shooting pretty much all day. Well, you put in for various events and wait to be called to the line, so there is also time to get ready, organized, hydrated, and socialize with friends and old friends. As a group we did pretty well on awards night, taking eight guns I can think of off the prize tables for the various events, and quite a bit of ammo, plus other odds & ends.

The new .50 pin gun with the Delrin comp was put to very good use by The Colonel. He has become quite a competitor.... not that he "wasn't" before, I mean we've been shooting matches together going back to, I think, 1997, but he has really ramped it up in recent years-- like a match or two every weekend, of various types. He worked the Delrin .50 ("Simo") to the tune of about 900 rounds at the match-- that's a lot of pin shooting.

Between eight or nine of us, the round counts look something like--
.22LR, 1480 rounds
9mm, 3,450
.45ACP, 2925
.50 GI (three of us), 1907
12 gage slugs (six of us), 470
12 gage OOB, 1625
.223, 1200-plus

I posted a couple new vids, here's one with The Colonel and Jess Christensen shooting the Two-Person team event.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbmdUHK0Z0Q

Note that none of the above numbers include the expenditure of Patrick Sweeney. Patrick, care to add some numbers?


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2021 1:07 pm 
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That Comped 50 looks like she blows yer hair back a bit, pins didnt know what hit them :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2021 7:12 am 
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Off the top of my head:

.45 ACP (Main Event, all four, shootoffs, and Revolver) 500
9mm (9x12 and PCC) 600
12 gauge slugs 100
12 gauge buckshot 500

I didn't shoot the .22LR event.


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:31 am 
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Thanks. I wanted your numbers because I knew they'd bring up the av erage ;-). Amended then:
.22LR, 1480 rounds
9mm, 4,050
.45ACP,3425
.50 GI (three of us), 1907
12 gage slugs (six of us), 570
12 gage OOB, 2125
.223, 1500-plus

At The Pin Shoot you get guys from all over the country, east coast to west coast. I have enjoyed that as much as anything since first shooting this match in 1979. Art Leckie and Kathy Behlert were the first real east-coasters I knew and I loved hanging with them and absorbing that accent. Art worked for Kathy's Dad at the time, Austin.

On the other end of the spectum, our California contingent has always been a real pleasure to be around. I think I maybe was supposed to be one because I have hit it off with each and every one of them-- but they make it easy. Of course we, and they, all despise California politics but the fact remains that there is a huge body of gun owners and shooters there. Good people.

As expected, Simo, the Delrin comp, is getting some erosion at the first blast baffle. It got to a certain point and stabilized but eventually it will need a metal insert. I will probably use aluminum as it will be a simple flanged tube, easy to make a few, and anyway on my aluminum comp while there is erosion, it is minimal after, now, 3-4,000 rounds.

.223 numbers edited to reflect Patrick's post below.


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2021 8:27 am 
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Oh, I forgot the 223, the LRPF. That, I'd guesttimate 300 rounds.


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Mon Jul 12, 2021 1:12 pm 
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Ned, this is great stuff! I greatly appreciate you taking the time to share.


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Mon Aug 09, 2021 7:15 am 
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Nice to see you here, Mark.

It’s a little frustrating sometimes the parts you can’t get. I wanted a regular old recoil spring plunger, carbon steel, preferable slightly extended on the end. A Colt part would do but—it’s a bad time to try and find Colt parts. It seems in recent years that a lot of places are cataloging and shipping guns only with Commander-length plungers. I just don’t agree with putting that in a 5” gun. Probably no big deal it it’s a tiny bit less support for the spring and after all why not just do it the way it was meant to be?
Anyway on this pistol I wanted a plunger long enough that I could put FRAG on the end of it(now known as Original F___ING FRAG). I wanted to cut the pattern in with a concave shape to it to, theoretically anyway, help with take down. OK and I thought it would look cool.
After searching at Brownells and elsewhere with no luck I took a Colt part I had on hand and extended it a bit. I like to ensure I’m using a proper piece of steel so I made the extension from a socket head cap screw. Pics below.
At the same time I wanted a plain-Jane recoil spring guide. I could not source one! No one carries it any more or they are out of stock. I probably could have found one but at some point you just say, I can make it from scratch or from an existing solid one in less time than it would take me to find what I really want. I have long since used up the many that I took out of brand-new guns and replaced with full length guide rods—you know, in the FLGR days (glad that’s over). I got solid one from Wilson Combat and drilled it out to “standard” config.
Image
Image
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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Fri Aug 13, 2021 12:22 pm 
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Update on this high-mileage Colt:

A day at a Carbine class. Some of the armorer’s tasks: tap out a stuck bullet—powder did not ignite. Important note: when you get a click instead of a bang, don't be in a huge rush to fix it by cycling another round in, especially if you get a faceful of powder when you eject the failed round. If you find yourself going to the forward assist, stop and think. I'ts not a forward assist, it's a warning system.

Also, stake some carrier keys, ream some chambers, get an older but unused EoTech to power up. Springs were missing in the battery compartment (a well known longtime issue with this older model). Fixed with aluminum foil wrapped around cut-off pieces of earplug until the owner can get the repair kit from EoTech. Also, inspect “a certain” police officer’s 1911*. This gun has some rounds on it. Image

Disassembled…. Finish wear but metal parts ore holding up well. Note that it has Colt sear and disconnector—MIM’d parts. Like any other process, MIM can be done right or done wrong. My experience with these Colt parts and Colt parts in general is that they are very good. Exceptions: Plastic triggers and mainspring housings, beavertail grip safeties…. A few others.Image

The breechface; it’s maybe wearing faster than some. I have not put a test indicator on it, maybe it’s not as much as it appears to be.
Image

The extractor—it’s a fairly recent new design from EGW (5-6 years ago maybe?). This one has so many rounds on it you can see wear on it from cases sliding up under it, and two arcs of wear representing where on the breechface the case is during firing and then during extraction. I was surprised on this extractor, some subtle shaping mods I normally do were not present, so I did 'em. I mean it's been getting by fine these last tens of thousands of rounds.
Image

Inside the barrel, new in December of 2018:
Image

Ref. this thread: https://forum.ltwguns.com/viewtopic.php ... 5&start=90

--------
I note that the breechface above appears to have some flame cutting at the point where the primer seals the primer pocket. Check this one, a pic I took a few weeks ago of a different gun. Lots of cutting and I don't know why. I mean I know what does the cutting but why these guns are evidencing it-- I don't get it. Is there something different about primers in the last few years....? I've heard a few things but don't really know. I can't believe it's from using cases that are so worn out that they don't seal. Any ideas?
Image
-----------------
* See "High Mileage Comes to Town": https://forum.ltwguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8365


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 11:55 am 
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That looks more like the edge of the bushing to close the firning pin shaft. Perhaps the steel is chipping on the edge, instead of being flame-cut?


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Tue Aug 17, 2021 7:33 pm 
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Quote:
Update on this high-mileage Colt:...

The extractor—it’s a fairly recent new design from EGW (5-6 years ago maybe?). This one has so many rounds on it you can see wear on it from cases sliding up under it, and two arcs of wear representing where on the breechface the case is during firing and then during extraction. I was surprised on this extractor, some subtle shaping mods I normally do were not present, so I did 'em. I mean it's been getting by fine these last tens of thousands of rounds.
Image

...
I know that's an EGW extractor, but it looks like a Detonics extractor (round shaft) (from one of my old guns). Was George supplying Detonics way back when or just a coincidental similarity?


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:38 am 
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Ned. When you take close up pictures. You take CLOSE up pictures. What are you using to take the pictures. Thanks again for the great post

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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Thu Aug 19, 2021 7:08 pm 
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I know what you're saying about the bushing Patrick but I don't think they even have a bushing any more, since-- I don't know when. '60's maybe? My sectioned Remington Rand slide clearly shows a threaded-in bushing. Can't say I've sectioned a commercial Colt produced post-war (but happy to if someone has one that is blown-up or something).

BBBBill, if you mean the "new" Detonics I would not be surprised if they use EGW extractors, George is OEM to several manufacturers. An older one? I dunno, but it seems and easier way to make them with no downside I can see, maybe they came up with it long ago.

Terry, the camera is a 10-year-old or so Sony Cyber-Shot (14.1 mega pixels) pocket camera that I ran over with my car years ago! Some pics I just take them a bunch of times until I get one good enough to zoom up on and crop, other times I take them through a 4X or 10X loupe. Not terrible results eh?


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2021 7:31 am 
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While at class all week this week: even though these are AR15-centric, students and staff will sometimes bring me something that that “needs attention”—and I’m happy to do it because I’m there anyway, on the clock so to speak. I can sweat while helping out with range duties, or stand around and sweat while doing nothing, or sweat while working on someone’s gun, hopefully making some improvements. I love doing that for the guys and gals.
This old beauty came my way. A pin gun from the ‘80’s, said to have been done up by Al Greco and/or Randy Hollowbush, two familiar names from the Second Chance days of pin shooting, and from the biz of 1911 pistolsmithing in the eastern states area. As best I know both are still involved in the firearms biz.
Image
It’s had a lot of pinloads through it. Let’s talk power factors for a minute—standard 230 ball at 825-850 FPS, PF’s at 190/196. The USPSA power floor for making Major is still 175, often done with a 200 grain H&G 68 at (minimum) 875. The owner complained of feed stoppages at a rate of maybe 1 in 50, with his pin loads—the bulbous 250-grain Long Colt bullet favored by many pin shooters. These will typically be loaded to a PF of, at the very, very least, 205 (820 FPS) and some will push it up to 215-plus, running maybe 860-875 FPS. This is not necessarily the best feeding bullet but better than some of the other popular ones like the 255 Keith wadcutter. The stoppage was described as being something akin to too much extractor tension. I found extractor shape and tension to be pretty close to textbook perfect, but noticed that in the breechface wear pattern, there was something I don’t believe I’ve noticed before—a semicircular wear area that surely was caused by up-feeding rounds. In other words, as a case rim’s edge slides up the breechface in feeding, it is doing so with a fair amount of rearward pressure against it, caused by all the things that a feeding round has to do that it would rather not do, like come out of the magazine, tip up and slide up the feedramp, and slide the bullet ogive against the top of the chamber. Meanwhile the edge of the case head is sliding up the breechface and bumpitty-bumping over that breechface topography. It falls into the ring-shaped depression made over the years by the case head and then encounters the unworn spot circling the firing pin hole—so now in addition to the normal upward drag, it has a slight bump to get over. This eventually wore the semi-circular divot, which made the feeding worse and worse as the divot progressed, given that the area of contact got wider and wider.

Having noticed it on this gun, I now see that the divot is starting on the above high-mileage Colt too (a few posts up).
The breechface, “before”:
Image
And, “after”. I started with pillaring file; a couple swipes with it and then to a stone. I wasn’t going for 100% cleanup or perfection, just to get rid of the divot. Of course as this was done “in the field”, I didn’t get a chance to put an indicator on the topography of the breechface, but I’d guess it was more than .0025 and less than .005. I was not worried about increasing headspace too much as it appeared to be on the short side, and anyway, I did not go beyond existing wear.
Image
How many rounds is a lot of rounds? This gun is on its second pin shooter, there’s no telling. By attempting to “read” the wear on it I would say we’re in the tens of thousands. Maybe 50K but maybe not yet 75K. Remembering that I’m still trying to teach myself to estimate round counts with some accuracy, perhaps +/- 20%..... with the many variables in play I may never get there but I’ve made a few calls that turned out to be close. Are pin loads harder on a 1911 than USPSA Major loads? Certainly. Another indicator on this old girl is that the frame is cracked, where they crack, especially on pin guns-- at the root of the dust cover where the slide bangs the frame each shot.
Here’s another interesting indicator: it’s been shot to slide lock enough that the slide stop, being pressed upward by the mag follower and spring, has worn a groove on the bottom of the slide rail. I have to think that would take well over 5000 reps to wear that much steel off—which would be 5000, 7-round mags, or 35,000 rounds. A guess, certainly…… “educated”, hopefully.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Wed Sep 01, 2021 11:39 am 
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These are the FRAG grips made out of Osage Orange (by VZ Grips exclusively for me). The wood comes from trees out behind the house. In the past I have made them a little bit two-tone-ish, easy enough since this wood darkens a bit with exposure to the sun. These grips have been taped into a window, on the inside, facing south, since January. As I did before, I put modeling clay in the grooves to mask them from the light, the goal being light grooves with darker squares on top. The other set, as an experiment and to monitor the color change, simply had a wrap of green masking tape over them:
Image

Close-up. Last time I used green clay, this time I used white, thinking it would reflect / block the light OK:
Image

And, tediously removing the clay. OK, lesson learned—the white clay is just translucent enough that it transmits the light somewhat, meaning the masking was less effective. Result, not the contrast I’d hoped for but anyway, depending on how much and how the gun is used, the contrast can’t be expected to last forever.
Image

This was the effect I was looking for:
Image


..... from this thread:
https://forum.ltwguns.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9950


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Thu Sep 02, 2021 5:01 am 
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The wear on that pin gun is impressive, only time I recall seeing that kind of BF and slide lock wear was a Pre A1 (later made bullseye gun) that was owned by a fella that once told me he used to cycle his old brass out to scrap when the headstamp was worn off :shock:
haha.

Also that 70 Series Frag gun is outstanding sir

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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Wed Sep 08, 2021 7:23 am 
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Thanks Karl.

I ran across this old pic while looking for something else. One of the very first Shield Drivers, you could say.

More later on slide rear serrations and how, when I do them, I wish I could just be Jason Burton :-)

Image

The pic is from 2008 but the sight is from 1983.


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 9:45 am 
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There aren't very many things I don't do myself in my shop. I don't doing bluing or plating. TIG and laser welding, I seldom need and I have a really good guy who does it for me, so.... some things it just doesn't make sense for me to invest in the equipment and make space for it, get up to speed on the process, only to be perhaps less good at it than the people I go to for it.

Rear slide serrations-- this is one of the things I do here in a very inefficient, time-consuming way, out of stubbornness, I guess. I do them a couple different ways these days and think they come out fine, but the setup is tedious, and I just can't leave it set up all the time. The process is a little technique intensive with lots of room for error. When I see how Jason and others do them to such absolute perfection, it's another reminder (there are many) that I still have some things it would not hurt me to learn. Anyway here's a recent one. I wanted the rear serrations to match the LPI of the Shield Driver and have the two sets of serrations join in an appealing way. Getting them to match in the "joined" area was a matter of eyeballing. The second extractor is in; the first one is sitting between the frame tangs. In the background, some of the calculatin', to find the radius by using the chord length and segment height.
Image

Looks like this:

r = C² + 4h²
8h


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 10:03 am 
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Posts: 441
Location: Casper, Wyoming
When it comes together that perfectly it’s hard to argue the process isn’t worth doing. Beautifully done !!

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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Thu Sep 09, 2021 11:46 am 
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Ned, I would not pretend to play on your, or Jason's level, but its funny you mention doing that Shield Driver that way! This one I actually cheated a bit, machining the back of the slide and sight to a flat kind of like Mr Brian, then serrating it all together. I like yours better though!


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 Post subject: Re: Shop goings-on
PostPosted: Fri Sep 10, 2021 5:17 am 
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Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2004 5:30 pm
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Location: MI
Good way to do it and indeed it looks very CT-esque.


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