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Which do you prefer, the internal or external extractor for the 1911?
Poll ended at Wed Jan 12, 2005 9:18 pm
Internal Extractor as designed and executed by JMB 100%  100%  [ 33 ]
External Extractor, JMB was wrong and should have gone with the external extractor 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes: 33
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:18 pm 
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I am sick of hearing from ill-informed individuals stating that "John Moses Browning learned from his mistakes in the 1911 and that's why the BHP has an external extractor" IRC JMB died in 1927 and the BHP was released until 1935. I would like to hear from the Custom Smiths, the guys that deal with extraction issues all of time, what is your preference, the internal or external extractor. Let's put this issue to bed for once and all.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 9:52 pm 
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The trend towards them is marketing and manufacturing expedient driven. They are not better..... I would say they are not worse either but Kimber sure seems to be having problems with them. Actually I like their execution of it best, but I sure see a lot of complaints (on the net, and yes, taken with a grain of salt). Have one such here now, I will see what I can find and report.

I believe it was originally done the way it was for several reasons-- also manufacturing driven based on the way things were done in those days, but the better crud-resistance of the internal was probably a major factor. Plenty of guns with external extractors were in existence prior to 1911, so the "lessons learned" thing is not necessarily viable. Anyway-- the below is copied and pasted from a post I made on 1911 forum about a year ago--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

"In a recent seance with a certain departed gun designer of note, who spoke (sorta) on condition of anonymity, I learned that the
reasons for using the internal extractor were based on manufacturing, assembly, and field service considerations.
Mounting/retaining it to the slide
Internal: Drill a stepped hole, while slide is already fixtured for drilling of firing pin hole, of a size/depth ratio that will not be terribly prone to drill breakage. Tolerance on hole, +/- .004. Machine extractor with a head on it and a slot for pass-through of firing pin retainer.
External: Mill small flat on top of slide to give a flat starting surface for pivot pin hole drill. Drill small hole for pivot pin. Care must be
taken that it does not break when breaking through at bottom. Hole must be sized perfectly for proper light press fit of pin. Oversized hole or broken drill=scrap slide. Mill flat-bottomed spring pocket by plunge-milling into side of slide with small end mill or drilling and then redrilling with flat-bottomed drill. Depth of hole's relationship to pivot hole location is critical to proper extractor tension. Slot with slitting saw. Deburr hole breakhrough under slide.
Extractor manufacture
Both require special steel and proper heat-treat. Both require several milling operations and some personal attention (external will not be just stamped, this is the early 1900's remember). External is somehwat easier to make and less scrap-prone even though it requires a small hole to be drilled.
Assembly
Internal: Pop it in while installing firing pin. Check tension, ajust as needed in fixure NFTD-00392-1911-**, reinstall, recheck tension.
External: Place slide in holding fixture, drop extractor spring in place. Drop extractor in place. Start pin. Note: if pin goes in too hard or too easy send slide back for rework or disposal. Press extractor into place against spring tension and tap pin into place. Check tension.
Field service
Internal: pop it out whenever firing pin is removed, wipe it off and clean out hole by scraping it with cleaning rod end. Reinstall.
External: Do not remove for field service. Extractor is more exposed to elements and damage from side blows. At armorer level, tap pin out with small punch being careful not to lose spring when extractor comes loose. Clean and reassemble making sure pin is still tight enough.

OK, I'm sorta playing devil's advocate here. Personally I don't give much of a rip one way or the other, with some pref given to internal. Manufacturing methods today make the external more viable than it was in those day. Keep in mind too that when we say external we are talking about two distinct designs even within the 1911 context, the pinned pivoting type described above, as seen in the new S&W, and the unpinned, plunger-powered type as in the Kimbers. I think I like that design better as it doesn't depend on a small pin being a perfect fit in a small hole. On a pin that small the dif between a way-too-tight-can't get-it-in fit, a proper press fit, and a fall-out fit is maybe 3/10 of a thousandth. Any pinned extractor, I'd rather see it with a slip-fit pin that has some sort of positive retention to make it a little more serviceable and less dependent upon perfect manufacture. A roll pin is an acceptable solution used on some guns.

I'm not slamming external extractors. The ones I've seen in 1911's were well-enough done and worked fine.

I will say that one of the best things I've heard with regards to internal extractors, besides the fact that we have some good ones
available, was John Jardine's idea of lowering the hole .020, so that the cartridge is that much less likely to fall out from underneath the extractor. Actually the slot for the extractor on the SW1911 was also relocated downward .020 at the last minute before production began, too. Good move."
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In my own personal context, I would not suffer the PIA of disassembling and cleaning the external type. All of the various types are way too inconvenient, loss prone, and ouch-my-eye prone for regular maintenance.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 07, 2005 11:40 pm 
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I have never had a problem with the original design extractor. The problems are from cheap materials and not being tuned correctly. I ve seen them from both ends of the spectrum in factory guns as far as tension from none at all to much for the gun to function. Thats the problem with them and instead of addressing that they market a new and improved external version to fix it. I am yet to see anything to prove they are better.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 5:33 am 
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Greetings,
Though I'm not a gunsmith, I've supported the rich and famous lifestyles of many :wink:
My experience is that the internal-style extractor is almost always sufficient. My Les Baer SRP with now over 100,000 rounds on the original extractor with NO adjustments proves that. But, my first custom pistol in 10mm did break an extractor tip within 2000 rounds. I changed over to an Aftec, and have had no problems since. I now order all of my 10mm guns with Aftecs. Its probably just a precaution, as I can't say the first regular-style extractor's breakage wasn't just a fluke. I've had no problems with any of the Aftecs.
My only experience with external-style extractors comes from my Performance Center guns. All of them, even those with many thousands of rounds through them, have always functioned perfectly.

ktmhk53


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 6:48 am 
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Quote:
I am sick of hearing from ill-formed individuals stating that "John Moses Browning learned from his mistakes in the 1911 and that's why the BHP has an external extractor."
I have heard this before and it always makes me laugh. Browning didn't go to the external extractor until 30 or so years after JMB passed. How the heck could he learn his mistakes from the grave.

Personally, I can't stand the asthetics of the external extractor. They destroy the natural lines of the gun and don't add anything that a properly tuned internal extractor adds.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:28 am 
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I like Ned's description of the differences and DON'T see anything wrong with a properly tuned internal extractor.

FWIW - the BHP originally was produced with the internal extractor and not an external.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 08, 2005 7:52 am 
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Quite right, Ray.

Another little factor, just for rounding out the equation, SIG .45's have an extractor that is more like an original 1911's than the new external style.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 2:29 pm 
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Gentlemen,

I have nowhere near the exoerience of Ned or likely anyone else in this matter, but here's what I have seen and found to be true in MOST cases. The internal extractor is great and works fine. A few poorly made parts have given it a bad rep, but many times it's a matter of one bad apple spoiling the bunch. Most of the people I know who have had major extractor issues or gun issues of any kind with a 1911 failed to do one thing - PROPER MAINTAINENCE! Too many people don't detail strip their guns to clean them and lube them properly and gripe when the crud gets so thick the parts can't move and the extractor has nowhere to go in the channel. Bullseye shooters are famous for it, and many simply brush out their barrel every once in a while and dowse the gun with oil to keep it running. A lot of people who have trouble with an internal extractor that is properly tuned and of good material are the same ones who say tight guns don't run well. Clean the thing, including the firing pin and extractor, lube it well, and give it a little TLC now and then. Bad materials and poor tuning are just that... not a bad design issue.

Just my $0.02 - Thanks for listening.

Happy Shooting,
~Jim Keeney

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 5:47 pm 
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Ned - it appears, at least from the anecdotal evidence on the gun forums, that the S&W extractor has fewer problems than the Kimber. I wonder if it's because the S&W is a longer lever from the fulcrum to the hook. Whadda ya think?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 7:16 pm 
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Jim, I'm with you, I am regularly amazed at how little TLC some guns get! Yes, a little de-crudding can go a lang way towards keeping a mechanism running well. We like to say how well the 1911 works in "adverse conditions" but that's no reason to leave it carrying around its own coating of same.

Dave, the S&W extractor is the "other" approach, pivoting on a pressed-in pin, as opposed to the Kimber, which pivots upon itself like most shotguns extractors I've seen. I like this setup better but I'm thinking the execution is flawed in the Kimber case. I just got through working on this one that's in the shop, and the symptoms were very much like those you'd see with weak ammo or too much recoil spring-- empty cases getting caught in the ejection port. Also, an occasional empty case was left of top of the empty mag when the last round was fired-- which directs me to the extractor. Extractor tension was fine though, and this is factory hardball and a 16 pound spring. What I found was that the ramp-in of the extractor goes up too high (IMO), so that when the barrel links down, bringing the case with it, the case is barely held or not held by it.

I doubt this is an unusual condition, since the extractor is a MIM part and so, I would say, is going to be utterly consistent, part to part. In other words, I would not expect there to be a few bad ones, where the ramp is dimensionally different from the others. But, no idea how many cavities there are in the mold that makes these, there could be some cavities that make good ones and some that make bad ones, so that's a variable, as is the location of the extractor slot in the slide. But I'll bet a velvet Elvis that much of the gnashing of teeth being heard about Kimber functioning problems stems from this.

Lightly scribing a line on the breechface of the Kimber where the ramp-in stops, and on a Colt with a new aftermarket internal extractor in place, I find that the Colt will still hold the case for about .040 after the barrel has linked down. That's a great margin and .040 more than the Kimber, which is right on the edge.

So, what to do? I milled the Kimber extractor in four places. What I'll call the crowding surface, the surface that bears on the cartridge rim and crowds it to the left, I removed .017 here, which in effect moved the ramp/crowding surface junction down about .030. I removed .017 from what in the inspection business would be called the net surface, the surface that contacts the slide and stops the inward pivoting of the extractor. This lets the extractor in more, so that the .017 off the crowding surface does not reduct extractor tension. And, I removed .017 from the inner end of the hook, so that it would be the same height as before. The fourth surface, the angled front of the claw, actually I did not mill it, I just snagged it off on the grinder until it looked about right. Extractor tension was unchanged by all this due to the nice long spring (another reason I prefer this approach) and the fact that .017 >in< translates to less than .017 movment at the back of the extractor, due to the leverage.

For all I know Kimber got onto this long ago and has corrected the part; but I understand this gun to be about a year old.

Of course, I could be all wet here as I won't be test firing until tomorrow, but I'm confident that it's going to work now. It's a pretty easy fix but oh-so-much-easier to have it come right from the factory.

As I've said before I do prefer this style of external extractor (if you must have and external one), but still it is a pain to maintain. The little pusher that acts on the extractor to make it pivot can be put in wrong, and getting the spring retainer in, along with the firing pin stop, is almost a three-handed affair.

The owner asked if I could convert it to use an internal extractor, I said yes but it's impractical I feel, since you'd be left with the slot in the side, and, while the counterbore for the cap to hold the spring in appears to be the same diameter and on the same location as the original setup, the smaller hole for the spring and pusher is off center, which would make just drilling it out larger real touchy..... if I were going to do it I'd say EDM it but criminy-- it'd all cost more than a new slide and still have the dang slot looking you in the face.

Will report on the test firing whether it be :D or :oops:


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 09, 2005 10:40 pm 
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Ned,
you could make a fortune if you advertised this service on the Kimber forum@1911.com :)

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 7:18 am 
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Agreed, gentlemen. I personally think the internal extractor, properly tuned and using a good quality extractor can't be beat.

The externals just seem to take too much work to make them consistant. They are, IMHO, a solution for a problem that never existed.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 8:20 am 
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Quote:
...But I'll bet a velvet Elvis that much of the gnashing of teeth being heard about Kimber functioning problems stems from this...
No way! Do you know how hard it is to find classy black velvet paintings of Elvis these days? :D Kimber has had several versions of their extractor but I couldn't tell you what the latest one looks like. I don't think it has completely solved the problem because I still hear about problems on brand new pistols. You may be on to something with your modifications - keep us posted on your results.

I also agree that the internal extractor is the way to go but it would be nice to find a fix for those Series II Kimbers. They've sold a lot of them and I doubt they are going away any time soon.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 10:53 am 
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The internal extractor just broke this week on my Hi-Power....granted its probably original to a pistol made in the 1940's (Inglis "CH"-series)!

All kidding aside, I don't really have preference for one design or another, I'd shoot a properly designed pistol with either internal or external--in fact I often do, owning a variety of pistols.

Just FYI, in R. Blake Stevens book The Browning High Power Automatic Pistol, in the latter half of the book, toward the appendices, he devotes two entire pages to the explanation for the Hi-Power's external extractor re-design in the early 1960's.

In short, the decision was purely by FN to redesign the extractor to an external one. Stevens goes on to explain that the economic reality post-WWII facing FN was that the internal extractor by JMB was a design more suitable to an earlier time when manufacturing and labor was relatively cheap. However, the post-WWII era was a different time, with labor becoming more expensive. It was FN's decision to re-design a better and cheaper extractor--hence the external redesign in the early 1960. Now "better" and "cheaper" are relative terms; and I don't think there's any argument about the latter. Sure, there's disagreement on the former; but the external extractor first appeared on Browning/Saive's Hi-Power in 1962, and has remained that way since without much protest.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 11:54 am 
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I'm not sure the problem with Kimber's external extractor is as pervasive as the various internet forums would lead one to believe. I have two new Kimbers, an Ultra Carry II and a Team Match II. Neither have shown anything less than perfect extraction over several hundred rounds of various loadings, each. Of course, my Colt and Springfields with internal extractors don't have any issues either, so I don't have a problem with either design.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 6:00 pm 
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I got a chance this evening to run through the box and a half of American Eagle ammo the customer sent for test firing-- the same stuff he was using when the problems occurred. There were zero problems, using two different mags, and shooting a fair number of them as limp-wristed as possible for a macho man such as myself 8) , weak-handed, full mag, down-loaded mag.... no malfunctions of any kind.

The real test will be to see if it works well for the customer over several hundred rounds but I'm pretty sure I've got 'er fixed.

You know, one of the best groups I ever shot using a 1911 was with a Kimber with a stock barrel. Playing around with this one tonight, it was ringing a 40" gong consistently at 200 yards, hadda use a full front sight of elevation and aim maybe a foot to the right.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:51 am 
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I've got three Kimbers, all series two but only one has an external extractor. So far no problems with the external, but I'm thinking of sending it in for reliability tuning anyway.....


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:56 pm 
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I'm one of the poor whiners on another web sites Kimber board. :oops:

Today, I just received a new extractor from Kimber. I wonder if they remilled it. After so many FTEs, my local Smith said the old one isn't getting the case rim.

I love the feel and balance of this pistol, a Kimber pro eclipse. This extraction problem is driving me nuts.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 8:20 am 
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....and this just in from the customer, who finally got a chance to go to the range:

"Just came back from the range. I think you cured it. I shot over 180 rounds of the same ammo and had no problems with extraction / ejection whatsoever. I would wait to proclaim it completely reliable since last time the problem didn't manifest itself until the second trip to the range; nevertheless methinks it will work fine now."

I agree, that a couple-three trips and more than 180 rounds are needed to declare victory, but this seems like agood start. He did have a single stoppage that was non-extraction / non-ejection issue that I believe was mag induced and we're working on it.

I'm just offering this info in case this problem is as common as I think it may be..... again with the realization that this is a sample population of one, which ain't much.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:28 am 
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While I haven't had but one or two external extractor 1911's in the shop (and none of these for reliability problems), it sounds as though the idea of lowering the extractor position relative to the breech face isn't a bad one. As far as the type of external tensioning, they both work - properly done. While S&W has been using the external types on their autos since about the early fifties (and they had some problems with the early model 39's, with about 3 different types of extractors), Walther and others have used the double bevel design that Ned mentions on the Kimbers and they seem to also work well when properly designed.

I think that Ned hit the nail on the head though when he talked about field service. At the time the gun was designed, wars were a bit different, and one didn't likely have nearby armorers to service the weapons. Let's face it, big parts which are user replaceable are harder to lose in the mud or sand. Also, they don't require a small punch to drive out the pin to replace the extractor.

While I'm relatively sure this is the reason JMB designed the extractor as he did, I'm also pretty sure that the main reason mfrs. are trying out the external style extractor is cost considerations. With the external type, it's pretty much a "just put it together" scenario, vs. the required adjustments that have to be taught and do take a bit more time on the existing internal style. I believe someone once said that "time is money".

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 16, 2005 11:30 am 
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Hmmm,

So who will make an aftermarket Kimber extractor :?:


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:12 pm 
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Hmmm - lemmesee. Internal extractor 1911 makers:
Baer
Wilson
Brown
Colt
Springfield
Yost

Must be a reason for that... 8)

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 1:33 pm 
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Hmmm,

So who will make an aftermarket Kimber extractor :?:
I've heard rumor that George Smith is considering it.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:34 pm 
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I've thought about it over the last week or so but George would be a better candidate :)

Called Kimber the other day thinking I'd buy some of their and modify them just to get some people outta the woods but the phone lines at the location wehre I could order parts were down.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 2:38 pm 
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I tried emailing them earlier this week about parts and the email was returned. They must be having problems.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 20, 2005 7:20 pm 
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Quote:
I've thought about it over the last week or so but George would be a better candidate :)

Called Kimber the other day thinking I'd buy some of their and modify them just to get some people outta the woods but the phone lines at the location wehre I could order parts were down.
My local smith installed the new extractor and spring that Kimber sent. We put it in and I fired 150 rounds mixed of PMC, WWB and Blazer. The PMC shot best. I still had a few WWB cases come back at my face, but we had no FTEs. I'm very happy. If a 1911 can extract Blazer it can extract anything. :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 12:49 pm 
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Iv been following this for a wile.
to date I have seen 5 different revisions on the extractor.
some the back pin is a round pin, some it is half a round.

Ned, I helped a guy through and did just what you did.
I am sure it would be nice to have a clean hook, possibly a square hook to start with, and the individual Gunsmith puts the radius on that he prefers. hardened all the way through also not mim :)

geo


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 1:11 pm 
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Aloha George - 'bout time you showed up.............

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 2:52 pm 
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Quote:
...it would be nice to have a clean hook, possibly a square hook to start with, and the individual Gunsmith puts the radius on that he prefers. hardened all the way through also not mim :)...
It sure would be nice George! Any ideas on where we might find one? (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 7:16 pm 
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Folks, George is here. That means LTW stock just went up 10% far as I'm concerned! Great to see you here, man.

George, do you think the very newest guns maybe have an extractor that's been corrected for this? I talked to the Kimber Custom Shop Friday about getting some extractors and they're $17.-something each, but I didn't ask about design change iterations. Figured even if I was talking to the guy who was the most up-to-speed on it, he might still be obligated to give me sort of a company-line answer. But I hope to find someone technical at the Kimber booth at SHOT with whom I can tenderly broach the subject. I mean, there can be no doubt that if this problem is epidemic, and they have not addressed it, that they would want to. I have to think they are already there but will not be able to help myself from sorta "checking".

I'm thinking they can/are holding the relationship between the linked-down barrel and the extractor cut in the slide to +/- .005, so if they'd just drop that junction of the crowding surface and the ramp-in whatever it takes, .030 or .040, it could/should be a drop-in, work-every-time part. That's what I'd hope for anyway.


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