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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:02 pm 
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Location: Tuttle Oklahoma
Getting ready to order some stuff from Caspian for a custom build and wanted some input.

Has anyone tried the Caspian external extractor on a 10mm?

Ramped or std. barrel?

Barrel maker?

Any suggestions are welcome.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:37 pm 
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Gary, I've very successfully used 45 ACP extractors for the 10MM's I've built. Had one guy who wanted Aftec extractors, and they worked fine too. I'd be concerned about the external extractors on the 10MM without some input from someone who's tried it due to the ongoing problems with them on other guns. S&W seems to be the only Co. who has it down as far as I know, and they're not making 10MM 1911's at present. As far as barrels, I've used Kart and Colt unramped, and no problems with feed or reliability, even on the Commander sized 10's. Best,

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 Post subject: 10mm
PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 12:57 pm 
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Have you used any of the Ed Brown barrels? Any idea who makes them for Brown?

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 3:37 pm 
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Ed makes his own barrels...where he buys the raw materials from I do not know.
http://www.edbrown.com/cgi-bin/htmlos.c ... 2281219855

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 17, 2005 6:24 pm 
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Gary, Some of us have had problems with barstock barrels, which Ed uses according to his website. I prefer a forged barrel myself, though there are many, many barstock barrels out there doing fine it seems.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:16 am 
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Gary,
Talk to Jim Keeney here on the forum. He has about 6 10mm's and a couple are Caspian builds. He knows inside and out.
Al

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:21 pm 
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Gary,

I am a far cry from being a gunsmith, so this is all from my personal experiences with various 10mm 1911s of my own and some I’ve shot belonging to friends. Here’s my $0.02. Take it for what it’s worth.

First and foremost, I think you’re making a great decision by starting off with a Caspian frame and slide for your build. No matter what you do to a factory gun, you’ll never get the total contact in frame/slide rail fit and the longevity of that fit that you get from a properly built parts gun. As far as durability is concerned, I have a Caspian frame/slide 10mm commander that has about 7K rounds through it, and most of those are full-powered stuff. There is no sign of battering and the wear is all even and proper. I use a 24# recoil spring in this with no shok-buff, standard FP stop, .45 Colt Extractor tuned to fit, and a 19lb mainspring. Everything about this setup goes against conventional wisdom, but I’ve had zero problems so far. Also, in this same gun, the slide stop, thumb safety, hammer, sear, and disconnector are Chip McCormick and are, indeed, MIM. Again, I’ve had no problems. This gun is not, however, how the rest of my 10mms are set up.

I think it was either Ted or Sean Smith who very appropriately said about 10mm 1911s, “nothing comes for free.” The 10mm will obviously wear on a gun faster than the fairly mild .45ACP, and that’s why the many “little” things you can do to help prevent premature/excessive wear & battering, such as a flat or lightly beveled firing pin stop, ramped barrel, factory weight mainspring, shok-buffs, heavy slide, or a bull barrel, are good for 10mm builds. Individually they don’t always make a huge difference, but collectively they can make a 10mm a pussycat to shoot full-powered loads through. I have a Para Ordnance/Caspian that Dave Sams built for me that uses an 18# recoil spring and 17# mainspring, and “nuclear” loads dribble out the ejection port into a neat little pile. The gun has a Caspian slab-sided slide, CP ramped Bar-Sto bull barrel, tungsten guide rod, AFTEC extractor, Bo-Mar sights, and a Smith & Alexander steel mag-well. While the mag-well and guide rod are not reciprocating mass, they do help absorb recoil significantly. The rest of the package makes for a very fast, accurate, easy to shoot gun with tons of power. In the right hands it might be a damn fine pin gun. Too bad I’ve never shot pins. Aside from the Caspian Commander and the Para/Caspian, I have a longslide Caspian with a Bar-Sto CP ramped bull barrel, a Delta with a CP ramped Bar-Sto standard bushing barrel, a Caspian 6” Longslide with a CP ramped Kart standard barrel in the works, a Caspian 5” gun with a CP ramped Clark standard bushing barrel in the works, and Colt Delta with a CP ramped Schuemann bull barrel in the works with Ted, and have had three other built 10mms that I no longer own. I shoot a LOT of 10mm. So, to make a long story longer…

I would stay away from the external extractors in any gun, and especially the 10mm. If you want the ability to fix a broken extractor quickly with minimal fuss, just have an extra fitted when the gun is built. Standard extractors are not expensive, and fitting an extra is a good thought for any gun. An AFTEC may be something to consider, but the7 are a lot tougher to fit properly and a pain at times to remove/clean/replace. AFTECs are tough, but nothing is indestructible. They can still break, and although I’ve never seen one break, some very knowledgeable folks, including Ned Christiansen (IIRC), has seen them.

Now for my favorite part… barrels. I have shot and/or used Bar-Sto, Kart, Clark, Colt, KKM, Schuemann, and Nowlin. I have 3 Bar-Sto barreled 10mms right now, but will likely stick with Kart and Clark barrels for future builds. I have yet to decide on Schuemann. I tested a Clark and Kart in Dave Sams’ barrel test fixture three weeks ago using various handloads and factory Federal 180gr Hydra-Shoks at 50yards. In the fixture, the Kart AVERAGED less than 1.5” for 10 shots for all 5 loads, and the Clark was a very close second with all loads averaging less than 2”. Both seemed to really like my 135gr Nosler over AA#9 handload, as the Kart shot it into a sub .75” ragged hole and the Clark just under 1”. They both shot the Hydra Shoks into less than 1.5”. Granted, these are shot in a test fixture and weren’t yet installed in the gun or a person’s hands, but they showed just what the barrels can do. IIRC, the Clark barrels start as a Douglas blank, and Fred Kart rolls his own. Bar-Sto makes a great barrel, but when you REALLY look closely, the Karts and Clarks are more refined and better finished (and fit up better, from what I’m told).

If you want to know what I consider ideal in a 10mm, here’s a list of the parts I have gathered for the longslide and 5” Caspians in line at Dave’s shop. They are the same except for length.

- Caspian frame & slide (Colt vertical serrations and GI end cut)
- Kart CP ramped bushing barrel (longslide) and Clark CP ramped bushing barrel (5”)
- NM numbered bushing (hard & long-lasting)
- Caspian full length guide rod (drilled for take down)
- Caspian FP stop
- C&S fire control parts
- EGW Slide Stop

Recoil spring weight will depend on what you're shooting. I never go below 20# or over 24# for a 10mm. All other small parts are whatever you like best. Personally, I like Bo-Mar sights on a 10mm since the range of loads and shooting scenarios are so extreme. I know this was a lot more than you asked for, but I got going and couldn’t stop. Anyone who knows me knows I’m a talker. Just ask Chip or Al.

Good luck & GOD Bless you and yours.

~Jim Keeney

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 Post subject: 10mm
PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2005 6:34 pm 
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Location: Tuttle Oklahoma
Jim thanks for the input. Right now I am leaning towards
Carbon GM serrated frame
Carbon 5" ball radius FT serrated slide with Caspian Rollos
Kart ramped Barrel. I live about 2 hours from Nowlin and have thought about their barrel. Our PD PPC team shoot 9mm Nowlin guns and are pretty happy with them, but seems the Kart will perform as good if not better for about 60% of the cost. Havent made up my mind if I want bull or bushing but leaning towards bushing.
C&S or Brown fire control.

I may switch to a Commander size since I dont have one. Probably going to order from Caspian this week so I need to make a decision.

Thanks again. I dont mind a talker as long as he has something to say.

Happy holidays to everyone and look forward to seeing you all at Shot.

Gary

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 25, 2005 9:56 pm 
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I'm a simple caveman and would be honored to merely sweep the floors at any of the smiths shops who reside here - I've built one caspian gun and am workingn on another. Just found a Delta for a buddy that Mr. Williams worked on and am looking forward to playing with that...

I'd avoid the external extractor. I like serrated slides so I fit 2 extra extractors to my guns prior to the finish being applied.

A broken internal extractor can be swapped in a minute or less with almost no tear down (without lawyers inside, and I presume you to be building a lawyer free gun).

I've shot thousands of rounds through my 1911s and I've yet to break a quality spring steel extractor, and once properly tensioned I never have problems.

I'm a traditionalist here...


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 6:51 am 
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Jim, how about getting Dave over here and have him tell us about that fixture? A very good friend (now gone, thanks a lot Agent Orange I think) and I often discussed making testing fixtures from Mauser actions. Something we could test a barrel in before fitting it to a gun. But they all seem to shoot well these days, although of course I'm going from my narrow sampling and unscientific methods, compared to what Dave is doing. Do I recall somebody is making them commercially? I was always a little worried that bolting a bolt action to a steel plate behing a barrel holding fixture would be creating a "short barreled rifle", even if the plate was ten feet long, you'd have a rifle action with a less-thatn-sixteen-inch barrel. Dumb laws and dumb consequences, eh?


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 Post subject: off the subject
PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:22 am 
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I liked the idea of the external extractor just from the angle of being a little different. But the input here persuaded me to go internal.

Off the subject but.....

Jim, tell me about your favorite 10mm loads. Looking for a good hunting round (deer, hogs and on occasion 2 legged prey).

Don, pardon my ignorance but what is the disadvantage of barstock versus forged?

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:08 pm 
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Quote:
Jim, how about getting Dave over here and have him tell us about that fixture? A very good friend (now gone, thanks a lot Agent Orange I think) and I often discussed making testing fixtures from Mauser actions. Something we could test a barrel in before fitting it to a gun. But they all seem to shoot well these days, although of course I'm going from my narrow sampling and unscientific methods, compared to what Dave is doing. Do I recall somebody is making them commercially? I was always a little worried that bolting a bolt action to a steel plate behing a barrel holding fixture would be creating a "short barreled rifle", even if the plate was ten feet long, you'd have a rifle action with a less-thatn-sixteen-inch barrel. Dumb laws and dumb consequences, eh?
I'm not Jim, but I have seen Dave's barrel fixtures and if I'm not mistaken he does make them for sale. Jim spends more time with Dave, heck, he's almost an unpaid apprentice, so he could give you a lot more info than me. I've only spent about four days in his shop.
If Jim is unnavailable to call Dave this week, I will and ask him to answer your question Ned.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 3:49 pm 
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Joe Comminoli (http://www.cominolli.com/) used to make a nice barrel test fixture, but I can't find it on his web site anymore. Al, I'd like to know about Dave's fixture too. Thanks!

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 4:43 pm 
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Gary, I'm not a metallurgist by any means, but as I understand it, barstock steel, such as used in barrels, has the grain of the metal all flowing in one direction, due to the way it's created. In this case, the grain all flows parallel with the bore. When the barrel locks and unlocks, a lot of the stress is put on the link lugs. Since the grain flows parallel to the direction of stress, it apparently becomes easier for the shear stresses to cause a failure in the link lug area. This seems to be more common in a 1911 if the frame hasn't properly been relieved with the "bowtie cut" as it's commonly called. In a forging, the impact of the forging causes a more random orientation of the grain, which makes shear stress failure less likely. The mental comparison I use is it's easier to split a piece of wood with the grain rather than across the grain. Hope this helps,

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 26, 2005 7:33 pm 
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Great explanation. Mr. Williams, thanks again for the work you did for the Patriot class... just found a Delta Elite you did for an FBI agent... a good friend of mine has been looking for a nice Delta. I assuured him anything you touched would be top notch... really looking foward to playing around with the gun. It may even find it's way back to you after he decides excatly how he wants it set up... :)


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 7:56 am 
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I'm not an expert on the 10mm by any stretch, but I have put a few of them together, to include a Kimber Stainless Compact in 10mm (converted from .40), a Delta Elite and a complete rebuild on a Dan Wesson Pointman Seven. I have owned a bunch of 10mms in several flavors from several makers and have come to prefer the 1911 platform for my own use. In the several thousand 10mm rounds I have shot (the majority being fairly stiff handloads), I have had only ONE extractor break, and that was a Colt factory Delta Elite extractor that I had installed in the Kimber Compact. It wasn't a new extractor(less than 500 rounds in the Delta before being replaced with an Ed Brown), but it sheared off within 250 rounds of installation in the Kimber. I suspect slide speed had a bit to do with it. It was replaced with an Ed Brown 10mm extractor. Come to think of it, that is the only extractor I have EVER broken on a 1911... Hmmm....

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 Post subject: Barrel fixture
PostPosted: Tue Dec 27, 2005 8:23 am 
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Dave is rather anti-computer. He doesn't have the time to post here. He will answer all emails daily through his wife Rhonda. That address is:
samscustom@att.net
His phone # is 804-375-3782

I just spoke with him and he would be happy to explain the barrel fixture to anyone along with anything else involved in his business. And let me say he is worth knowing. I highly recommend him.

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