ltwguns.com

New to this site and must say . . . great forum. Very much into the premise of what the site is trying to do. Have a question as I am very new to the custom-side of pistols. Is it, speaking in generalities, more economical to acquire all of the components, including some of the small parts that you prefer to have used, and then seek out a pistolsmith to complete the build and assembly? Or, is the cost difference negligible enough to simply find a smith who's work you admire, contact them, relate all the additions and features you would like incorporated into the finished gun, and then have them gather everything themself?

I ask this because I am considering a full custom project and would very much appreciate as much input as possible.

Thanks in advance.

This is closer to accurate. If there are certain items, modifications, etc..that you absolutely want on your custom pistol it is imperative that you communicate that to the smith. You are spot on, when you ask about finding a smith's work you admire. It is important that you agree with the smith's style. There are certain parts smith prefer to use for various reasons. Do your research and then decide your direction. Most smiths don't mind if you provide input on what you are expecting.

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Heirloom Precision, LLC.
480-804-1911

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
- General George Patton Jr

Welcome, pinot_guy. I think most smiths prefer having the latitude of providing the parts, not necessarily specifying them, but acquiring them. Anyway, there would be no cost advantage to you in getting them and sending them with the gun as generally there is a dealer price and a retail price. You will in most cases be paying retail for sure if you buy the parts yourself, and will probably pay retail to the smith for the parts too, no cost dif to you but that way he makes a little on the parts-- might as well give it to the guy who's building your gun instead of the other outfit. I think you'll find this an inflexible rule with some guys and with others it may be dependent upon certain factors.

Very good question, and you might get several answers, but here's my take.
A couple of weeks ago, I overheard Jason telling someone in exactly your situation that in his opinion, the guys who got the nicest overall package - the most "bang for the buck" if you will , were the ones who gave me my head during the build, rather than locking me into a set package of mods. I hadn't given that particular perspective a lot of thought, but on reflection, I guess it makes sense. I get requests frequently to do work that either combines the styles of other smiths with mine, or just outright copies the work of another smith who might just have a longer waiting list.

In these cases, there are some concerns for the customer, as well as the smith. For the smith, it's one of diluting or modifying his "signature" or his identifying traits. I for one, don't relish the idea of blending my styles with those of my friends and colleagues who've worked hard to establish their own unique identities. The more it's done, the more it's expected. That leads to the problems the customer experiences, largely in the area of perception and expectations.

Supplying parts is an age-old problem - The short answer is that the only parts a smith makes money on are the ones he makes himself. Margins are not great among suppliers of 1911 parts, and when you figure in the time it takes to order, stock, and inventory parts, and the shipping for incoming and returned unsuitable parts, there's not a windfall there for the smith. If the customer supplies unsuitable parts, he loses - period.

When suggesting possible work for your smith, try and refrain from complicating the process of communications. Keep things as simple as you can, because time - as you may have heard, is money. I have a customer who sends a revised order just about every week. "disregard previous" is the message, and it's not a problem at all. Others will send lengthy emails loaded with photos of the work of other smiths, links to be followed to sites all over the net, all requiring a response each time they get a new idea, or see a new mod somewhere. Why is this a problem for the customer? Because it runs up the cost of your job, and puts your smith even farther behind than he already is!

All the professional smiths on this site and elsewhere have their own style. Some have a "range of styles", but their work is still uniquely their own. It's this "identity" that makes one's work stand apart from the rest, and makes the process of choosing a smith for your project a bit easier.

Not to oversimplify, but if you find a guy whose style intrigues you, and whose past work offers enough reference material for you to begin a dialogue with the smith, you're on your way.

Good luck in your quest - You've come to the right place!

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Heirloom Precision, LLC.
480-804-1911

Far and away the best prize that life offers is the chance to work hard at work worth doing.

TR

Welcome to the jungle pinot_guy. I think you'll like it here.

FWIW, I don't allow customers to supply their own parts. Over 20 years of building customs full time has given me a pretty good idea what works and what doesn't. The people I build for just have to trust me. The parts they get from me will be only the best of the best, albeit heavily modified to reflect my style (or lack thereof ).

Just my 02.

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CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

Welcome aboard, good sir! You've asked a question that I'm sure many wonder about. Many good responses thus far, which I hope have proven useful. Allow me to add a penny...

First and foremost, choose the smith whose build philosophy, artistic style, and whatever subjective 'aura' appeals to you most. Given of course is the smith has a reputation of building reliable, accurate pistols, etc.

I recommend doing this even before acquiring a base pistol specifically for a project. You will find that some smiths will not work on all brands of pistols, or use all brands of parts based on their experience as to what works and what doesn't. The best smiths will take great care and consideration into what goes into their pistols.

I for another do not accept customer supplied parts in my shop.

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Stan Chen Customs
http://www.chencustoms.com

Damn.

You guys are saying that even though I've put in all the effort to finally get BarSto to make me a custom barrel for my Llama 380 Mini-Max, you won't put it in for me?

Damn, just damn.

Man, I was hoping to send Y-B my Lorcin .25 Auto, along with the Kart barrel. I will have to call them tomorrow, to have them get the barrel for me.

In all seriousness, my gunsmith (not a LTW regular, but pretty darn good regardless) insists on acquiring the parts himself so he can inspect them before my gun gets to his shop. Greg and I delayed a project for several weeks while he ordered and sent back several hammer/sear combinations to his supplier, trying to get a pair to his liking. The result was worth it.

I think if you pick the smith you should tell him what you intend for the gun's purpose: self defense, bullseye, range plinker, bragging rights, etc. and let him/her know if there is something of particular concern. For example, if you like Heinie sights but hate Novak this would be important. However, I would presume most 'smiths as CT has stated, know what parts work and how they like to modify them. So if you want fiber optic or night sights spec that and if you hate french borders let them know. Think of it as art, you wouldn't hand Van Gogh paint, canvas, brushes and tell him what to paint, would you?

This is of course just from a "getting the best from your smith" approach. Supply issues can arise from customer supplied parts. What if you send them your parts from Ebay that were listed as Nowlin match grade parts but are actually not Nowlin and instead are CIM (crap injection molded)? You have wasted your time and money & the time & money of the 'smith. Now your job is farther behind and you will be getting the parts from the smith anyway.

Hire someone to do their job. Don't hire someone and then tell them how to do it

What I do is to have in mind how I want the overall gun to be. I usually have just a few set in stone things, such as a solid long trigger, either Hienie or Yost Professional grade sights, no ambi, and checkering.

Those are the usual "musts" for me. As for the rest, I just ask for the smith's recommondation as to what he feels is the best parts, best way to build, etc. I figure they have way more experience with what works than I do, thats why I'm coming to them in the first place. I give them plenty of leeway, and don't bug them much once the build starts. Me personally, I hate taking a phone call just when I'm cleaning a gun, I can only imagine constantly answering the phone when if I was trying to build a custom 1911. I prefer to just shoot them an email and let them reply when they have time, say later in the evening while at home.

I know one guy who likes to "micro-manage" the smith. He practically wants updates weekly, if not more often. Thats seems silly to me. To the smiths credit (not a LTW member but a very well respected smith) he answers all calls and emails, is always very polite, always takes the time to talk with my friend, etc. That speaks highly of the smith, but I'm sure it gets tiresome.

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Hard work pays off

I guess I took a different path. I acquired all of my parts (from Brownells and Caspian, NOT eBay! ) and decided on the gunsmith. Any gunsmith who wanted to take issue with my parts (Caspian slide and frame, Heinie sights, Kart barrel, mostly Ed Brown small parts with a couple of Wilson ones) got immediately dropped from the list of "possibles" regardless of who he was or what I thought of his work. In the end, I got what I wanted.

I have no problem with a gunsmith supplying parts if I'm ordering a "package" gun from him but if its something that I've specified, then I see no reason why I shouldn't supply the parts if that's what I want. After all, despite what a lot of gunsmiths like to think, if I pay for it, it's MY gun, not theirs.

I actually had one gunsmith that I contacted tell me that, even if I supplied the parts, he was still going to charge me the difference between dealer cost and retail cost on each and every part that I sent him. He wasn't some amateur, either, but was (and is) a Guild member and nationally-known pistolsmith. Needless to say, he got dropped from my list.

But, to actually answer the question, it really doesn't save you any money to provide the parts yourself. Someone, either you or the gunsmith, is putting in the time to order them, unpackage them and organize them. Even if you CAN get them at dealer price, what's your time worth? If you judge based on the rates charged by my employer, I'm LOSING money to order my own parts! For every part on a 1911 ordered from Caspian and Brownells, the difference between retail and dealer is probably only a couple of hundred dollars or a little more. If I'm dropping $2K (my personal upper limit) on a pistol, a couple of hundred doesn't bother me much. If saving that much is significant to you, then you might as well buy a Wilson, Brown, Baer or Nighthawk and save the true custom pistol for another day.

I will never use a pistolsmith/gunsmith that will not accept at least some of my parts. Sorry guys.

I don't mind if something gets rejected, as that has happened. one time is was a Kart bushing that was soft. Another time it was a Greider trigger sans overtravel screw that was too short. Another time a Wilson ejector that sheared off after 25 rounds. Not junk parts.

Its not about saving money either. My money tends to grow better in an interest bearing account than it does sitting in around in the cigar boxes I use to store upcoming custom projects.

I just never want to hear from my 'smith:

"I am waiting on a XYZ barrel to get started"

"I am waiting on XYZ hammer, sear before I can get started"

"Brownells is backordered on that particular thumb safety (Kings) how about a nice Brown (Like apparently every other custom gun on the planet)"

When I supply the parts, I take some of the waiting out of the game and also some of the excuses. It also makes me a part of the build and I personally enjoy it. It also stretches the cost out over a longer period of time and when building multi-thousand dollar luxury items, that too comes in handy.

Anyone try to get a Bar-Sto barrel anytime soon? Try 1.5-6 months.
Schuemann AET barrel? Try 6-8 MONTHS.
SVI bar stock thumb safety? Sometimes 3-6 months.
SVI frame? Sometimes never..
Stuff from Bob Greider? Depends!

Some of these things can take 6+ months to acquire. Hell, a Caspian slide can take 2-3 months if it is an unusual length/breech. I ordered a Titanium race ready high cap frame in SEPTEMBER and it showed up today (6 MONTHS).

While I am waiting 2-3-7 years in some cases for my name to come up on a waiting list, you better believe I will be accumulating parts in the meanwhile. I sure don't want my number to be pulled and hear
"oops, sorry, can't get that part anytime soon......."

If you are just interested in getting a "package" gun, I would guess it really doesn't matter. However, none of my guns are package guns. I am more of an "ala carte" guy.

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"The most effective armor is to keep out of range"-Italian proverb

CHECK OUT MY CUSTOM 1911 BLOG
http://thearsenalofdemocracy.blogspot.com

Anthony,

You bring up a good point I had never thought about-the availability of parts. I'd always thought about gunsmith waits, and had never put much thought into needing to wait for parts too!

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Hard work pays off

Sincere thanks to all of the members who have replied to this post. I think I can honestly say that I can take something of value from each response. It's also refreshing to get both sides of the coin: input from smith's themselves as well as customers relating some of their experiences. My hope is that other members will share their thoughts too. Subsequently, using the dialogue from this post and others within this forum, I have approached a smith regarding an idea that I have been thinking about for some time now. Anxiously awaiting a response.

How do you find out a smiths philosophy? What do smiths feel is necessary for a "package?"

Just ask him/her. If you're really serious about building something, most smiths will be more than happy to visit with you about their style and thoughts. They'll also be very interested in what your ideas are.

If your ideas run contrary to theirs, it doesn't mean either of you is wrong, just that there's probably a different smith who would better fit your desires. Most 'smiths will tell you right up front if they can't build what you're wanting.

The only time you're really waisting a gunsmith's time is if you aren't serious about building something.

Having several custom 1911's. I would say that the use of the gun will dictate some of the options. For me, a full size 1911 in 45acp with Bo Mar sights,checkering in the front, good barrel and high quality small parts will do the trick for anything I will be doing. My Les Baer Premire II std model that I own for the last few months is a perfect example of one.

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AP

There are several problems that can come up with customer supplied parts. The obvious is a defective part, it's going to suck up extra time and it's really not fair to expect the gunsmith to take care of sending it back and getting a replacement but most of us will, maybe.....once. Another thing is that most of us keep a supply on hand of the most used stuff, beavertails, safetys, and such. Sometimes the first one you pick up doesn't fit your frame quite right and if you dig thru a few you may find something better to work with. Some stuff varys from lot to lot and it's nice to be able to pick the best for your frame. I enjoy a customer who knows what he wants and which parts he wants to use, and as long as they are quality parts I and most others will be glad to accomodate. I know I'm not alone in stating that I won't use second rate parts no matter what. It's equally good to work with a customer who "puts it in your hands" and just wants a good pistol. I think the important thing is to work with a gunsmith you trust and just spend a little time deciding what you really want , he will guide you around the problem stuff.



Ross

Wow! Guess I've been missing out on this one!
I've always looked at it as giving the smith an opportunity to make a little off the parts. If I had a specific part I wanted to use I brought it up to him. Yeah, its my gun but HIS name/reputation is on/in it. If he is worth a crap he wants only quality parts that meet his approval. If I provide the parts and they fail, whose fault is it?? I'm a stickler for backing up what you claim and I don't care to provide a guy an out if a part I provided, and he installed, goes bad!!!!