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A few weeks ago, I posted a question about a Colt NM Gold Cup 38 MR I had acquired, which led into a discussion of loads, magazines, etc. Now that I have put a fair number of rounds through my Mk III version, and compared it to my other 38 WC semi-autos (a Sig-Hammerli P240 and my two S&W Model 52s) may I offer these thoughts?

To start with, I fail to understand the poor reputation for function this cartridge has developed among most of the gunsmiths I contacted to see if they would build a new gun to shoot what I find a very easy-shooting and accurate cartridge. "Only if you point the damn thing at my head and hold it there while I work on it, and that won't get it done past the first warning shot since the thing won't feed the next round reliably anyhow" was a reaction one builder gave me, before saying, "Dave, I'll build one for you, but I recommend against it. Most of the ones I see don't work for squat."

This cartridge was made popular, at least at first, by the late Jim Clark Senior, and some of his conversions come up frequently on the market. I called down to Clark last week, and got the same reaction, "we will do it, if you really want us to, but we don't like to do it. They are a beast to get to work right."

Why? Magazine and feed issues are what I have been told. Okay, is that a problem inherent in 'the beast?' Is it really that hard to get a rimmed revolver round to function properly in a semi-auto magazine, as some claim? I suggest not.

My P240 in 38 WC has functioned flawlessly. Doris and Roland, at ROCO in Texas, who are Hammerli experts (and Roland builds some really neat builds on the P210 platform) say that they have never had an issue with the 38 WC version or with the 32 WC version of the same gun. My P240's twin in 32 S&W Long WC, another rimmed ex-revolver cartridge, bears that out. Ditto for my Pardini and Watlher match autos in the 32 WC loading, a long-time staple of Olympic competition and where I have never heard of 'feeding issues' for this rimmed round.

How does my Models 52 feed? Just fine.

My Gold Cup? Okay, now I see what they are talking about. My Mark III version came with four factory mags. They all function very well. I tiied a 'third pary' mag and it would not function properly. Also, the gun is sensitive to dirt and 'grunge' in general. Let any dirt or powder build up in the feed and this gun will not run.

So it is really a question of updating technology, I believe. The Colt approach to making the 38 WC work was a follow on to the AMU tinkering and not all that sophisticated. No locking lugs, kinda cobbled together, and made to work by a delicate balance of trial and error (the write up in the newest issue of Goddard's Commercial version book and the recent book on Military Marksmanship Autos has the full story.) And it shows in results down range as well.

The S&W and the Hammerli are both much more accurate than the Colt. Shooting them from a rest (to eliminate as many variables for how much coffee I had that morning), these two later iterations were much more accuarate, the Hammerli the top of the heap. Both the Hammerli and the Smith use the same basic gun that works with 'normal' (i.e. rimless) ammunition.

So why not build a 1911 today in what is a neat cartridge to shoot at the range? Beats me. I now turn the stage over to any of you professionals out there who know the ins and outs of building a 1911 far better than this 'end user.'

Dave

Dave,

Some interesting observations you've made. I am unfamiliar with this specific cartridge and am wondering if you could briefly summarize its background. How does it perform ballistically? Are you able to use stock .38 Special or .38 Super parts and components or are there caliber-specific parts available? Any chance of posting a pic or two of your pistol?

Thanks in advance for any additional information.

38 Special Wadcutter, a low velocity 38 Special loaded with a flat-nosed lead bullet set flush with the mouth of the cartridge case. Used almost exclusively for punching perfectly round holes in paper targets. A picture of the cartridge can be found at any ammo mfg site, or go to http://www.midwayusa.com, click on the Ammo tab, then click on Handgun Ammunition, select 38 special and then sort for Wadcutter. Then click on one of the listings and then hit the 'enlarge' button and you will see a 38 Special Wadcutter. (The 32 S&W Long Wadcutter looks the same, just a smaller case.)

If you go to the section of this site on Collectible Pistols, I posted some photos of the Sig-Hammerli P240 there. (Here is the link http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/vie ... php?t=3394 The Colt Gold Cup National Match 38 Mid Range looks just like any other NM of the same era. Ditto for the S&W Model 52. Go to the S&W site and look at the newer model, the 952 under their Performance Center tab. Dave

Dave,
Interesting topic. I, unfortunately, will only be a watcher & learner on this thread. I am sure that with the talent represented on this board it should be an enlightening discussion. Thanks for posting!

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Redeemed

check out this link from when i was(am) thinking about having one built .

i eventually decided on a 6" 9mm for p.p.c once i got some feedback from some knowledgeable members.

from what i was told a 9mm or 38super 6" is a better choice now days with all the loading materials info around...


http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/vie ... highlight=

Dave,

I have shot three of Dave Sams' .38WC 1911s in the last four years, and all ran incredibly well and shot insanely accurately. They do take a little more work and some of the parts to make the right are more "specialized," but they are great to shoot. He built quite a few while at AMU, and since bullseye and competitive shooters are still his primary customers (I still don't know why more defensive minded shooters don't go for him), he gets the call for them now and again. I can say that a factory Colt won't come anywhere close to a built WC gun in the accuracy department, but it may still be a great shooter. They are a different animal, and that's why many guys don't build them... just like many won't build a 9mm and some frown at a 10mm. They just don't have the experience or the desire to step outside their comfort zone and learn something new. I HIGHLY recommend talking to Dave about it if you want one really built well.

~Jim Keeney

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"I'd rather die on my feet than keep living on my knees." - Emiliano Zapata, Mexican Revolutionary

Jim,
You mention you have had David Sams do some work for you. How do you like his work? I'm thinking of having him do some for me as well.

Now that there are top quality 9mm and .38 supe match quality barrels and bullets, there is no reason other than "why not" to use the .38 special wadcutter, unless you really like the full wadcutter holes!
Most PPC and bullseye smiths can put a 2" guarantee on either caliber at 50 yards..

Mags are at the root of the issue. Personally, I am not crazy about full sized auto pistols that only hold 5 rds in the magazine, either..

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My .02 why not, Well here is why I wouldn't. I own a 5" Nowlin crusader in 9mm that will and I mean will shoot 1.5 in at 50yds with quality factory ammo I personally shoot speer 147 truncated fmj. The availiability of 148 lhbwc is becoming less and less try to find a sporting goods store with the variety of 148 wads as compared to the slew of 9mm ammo they carry. Avaliability of magazines and price. I break 2 to three mags a year in the PPC season and replace them with a phone call a credit card number cant say the same with the .38 wadcutter mags. My 9mm 1911 runs 100% all the time any hiccups have beencaused by magazines which I promptly dispose of and do the previous. I have never shot a 38 wadcutter gun I can say the same of. To me it is easier and cheaper to build and shoot a 9mm, not saying that I haven't kicked the idea of building a 6 in .38 for myself but I just dont see any advantage to the 38 wadcutter auto over a 9mm. I am definately not knocking your idea. but Something else to think about if you arent a reloader two ammo manufacturer's who will remain nameless are set to drop 148 wads from their line in the near future as the only demand is PPC and bullseye. Most police departments no longer issue revolver's nor even train with them so the demand dwindles further. Just my thoughts on the 1911 wad gun. I haven't handled a sig or hammerli so I have no frame of refrence there but I have shot the 52 and gcnm1911. Just my .02

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I thought I would get in on this. I have a Colt 38 wad cutter and here's what I think. One the poster likes this round he has a P240 and a Smith 52. I also have a Smith 52 great gun, I let a fellow shooter shoot mine at the range and 2 weeks later he had and loves it. For paper punchers it a very fun round to shoot and if you reload it's about 7 cents each. I run 2.8 gr. of Bullseye over a 148 Star bullet. I have on thought on the functining on this round I have over 1200 rounds in the last year through the 52 and not one FTF or FTE. I did have a couple of problems at first but once I switched to the Star and put a light crimp on it no problems. The Colt is just as fun to shoot. When I first got it It jammed like crazy. The round was jamming at a 45 degree up angle in the chamber. I called Clark, (Mag) problem they said. I ordered one of their mags and I shot almost 800 rounds and not one problem. A little about the Colt 38, The gun facory stock is very tight and has a great factor trigger as good as any of my custom guns. It has a very nice slide to frame fit and is as accurate as any of my custom 45s. The thing that threw me was the barrel has a spring on it and it moves 1/16 to 1/32 of on inch. As far as realibility this is a fun target gun and not duty gun so what if it jams at the range once every 500 to 1,000 rounds. As if you can't tell I really like my 38 wad cutter. I say build one or find a used Colt more than likely it as accurate as you will need and it a hoot to shoot. TJ