ltwguns.com

While I know this is the "Custom Pistols" section, this site doesn't have one for production guns, but I know that there's a good knowledgebase here that I was hoping I could tap into.

I have become a bit frustrated with the 1911 market of late. It appears that the gap continues to widen between the $500 Taurus and the $4000 full house custom. Would it really be that difficult for a manufacturer to offer a factory gun made with the best quality parts and do it for a reasonable price? Perhaps sacrifice a bit in terms of things like slide:frame fit, or maybe stop chasing those elusive "1.5 inch at 50 yard" accuracy guarantees?

I have a YB 1* Enhanced that, despite my first impressions, has become my favorite 1911 as a no-nonsense, no-frill, training/competing/gun (Thanks for putting up with me Jason!). While I think, in the current market, the gun was a deal at $1800, it still strikes me that many of the costly processes (high-cutting, beavertail, sight dovetails, dehorn, etc.) could have been done at the factory and in turn cost much less.

Charles Daly Defense is currently working on bringing to market a pretty no-frills 1911 that still has all the features (beavertail, Novak cuts, etc.) but skips on the fluff or items that may be too personal to include in a production gun (front cocking serrations, front strap treatment, etc.). Unfortunately this pistol is going to be cast and use MIM, but it's going to retail for around $600. Would it really be that difficult for a factory to produce a pistol with a forged frame and slide, tool steel parts, and get it out the door for $1k+/-?

Is it too much to ask a manufacturer to produce this at a more affordable price?

I guess an argument could be made that the S-A "Loaded" guns come close, along with Series I Kimbers (after replacing the critical MIM parts only).

My complaints with the S-A guns are over-cut dovetails for the sights, and less-than-stellar fit on the beavertails. But, all that final fitting has to be done by hand = $$$.

I can remember when a full-house gun - checkered, lo-mount Bo-Mars, etc. - cost about $700-900, plus the base gun cost. I recently picked up a Series 70 built by Don Fisher (now retired) of Colorado in 1981. A very typical 5" IPSC-style gun for the time. The original work order was under $700.

Those days are long gone. Then again, a car that should cost $20,000 now costs $40,000, etc.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

For the intent of this particular gun, I don't really care as much about tight grip safety fit. Below is a pic of the grip safety on the YB above. At the time, I bitched and moaned about it like a little girl. I was wrong. I missed the point. It functions just fine, and the little extra gap on the side has zero impact on what the gun is used for.

This is the kind of "slop" that I would be more than tolerant of as long as the gun worked, all the time, and came in under the desired price.

YB 1* on Springfield GI




Ed Brown SF that I was comparing it to that caused my hissy fit. I'm now keeping the YB, and selling the Brown, FWIW

Entertain this thought for a minute and then I’ll try to address your question...

Is it the “gap” that continues to widen or is it that your tastes have become more refined or more specific to your task? Think of it this way, when you first started shooting what level of skill/equipment/gear were you happy with? What was your standard then and is it your standard that has changed or the market or both?
Too much to ask, no... unrealistic, maybe... at least at that price point. The commercial gun market is goofy and the reality is that most consumers don’t worry about what parts are in a gun or what/how they are made. Most folks want a gun that simply works for them during their bi-annual (annual?) trips to the range, and they don’t want to pay any more than they have to for it. And while there are certainly some great guns available at fair prices, this is a large part of reason we (the custom gun market) exist, for those who simply can’t get their version of perfection anywhere else and are willing to make extra efforts to get it.

And from where I sit that’s really the most important and relevant question. What is your desired level of perfection? The statement of “cheap, fast, good... pick any two” really does apply.

Consider this... although not at or under the $1000 mark, guns such as the Baer TR Special already fall into your description of “a factory gun made with the best quality parts and do it for a reasonable price. Could it be the market has already established ‘what it will bare‘?

As a final thought... do I think what you’ve listed is possible or doable? Truth is I don’t know... I’m just a dumb gunsmith, but I can make one more relevant point using your 1* as an example.

You said, “the gun was a deal at $1800” and it may have been. But while it may have been a “great deal” it wasn’t a great money maker due in part to the labor involved that could have been better spent on more profitable ventures. The 1* pistols were worth doing because they served a purpose but even then, as you pointed out, they can’t be done perfectly for every consumer and often times one was left desiring more. The “more” is what’s not available at that price point and part of the reason we (Heirloom Precision) don’t offer a conversion such as the 1*.

Logic and experience showed us that you simply can’t build a good gun and make everyone happy at that price point.

We found that people’s expectation often times exceeded the price point and, using your beavertail fit as an example, there were always certain things that were out of our control given a desired price cap. You see, the gaps you made note of were not a product of the beavertail fit but rather a common occurrence with the base gun. But in order to meet your price point the proper remedy could not be employed. Same goes with a few other things that I recall you noted in your comparison.

Now apply the aforementioned logic and experience above to a large scale manufacture and you may have the reason why you can’t buy the gun you described for $1000. Just a thought...

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Heirloom Precision
http://www.heirloomprecision.com

Jason, thanks as always for taking the time to reply.

The Baer TRS is actually a good example, and I think a good value. I'm guessing that it's still possible to get them for $1500+/- for a savvy shopper. But, they still have that ultra-tight Baer fit, front cocking serrations, and frontstrap checkering. How much could be saved on the price of the gun by loosening it up a bit, and ditching those serrations and checkering?

Maybe it's a case of market share. The segment that I fall into that wants a gun they consider "hard use" in terms of limited hand fitting, eliminated decoration, but still top shelf parts used, just is too small for a major manufacturer to get into. And so, guns like the 1* wind up costing a little more than they need to because a shop like YB winds up having to do a bit more hand-fitting than should be required, but isn't able to do all the hand fitting that some might expect (like I mistakenly did).

FWIW, I think that the difference between my attitude when I bought the 1* and now is that then I was looking for that fitment and all those external cues, and now I'm just looking for the most reliable and longest-lived 1911 I can get economically and without any extra bells and whistles.

Why compromise?

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CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

I do understand where Rob S is coming from. I have several high-ticket 1911's and BHP's, and have carried daily for the last 30 years, first as an LEO, and now as a private citizen. However, if I was forced now to actually shoot someone in self-defense, the reality is that law enforcement will be taking your gun into evidence, and not treating it too kindly. Back in the day, as part of our evidence procedure, we would use an electric pencil engraver to to put the case number on each gun.

Needless to say, I would prefer they take my box-stock Glock for evidence ! While there is no pride of ownership as compared to my Colts and Brownings, there is no corresponding pain. It is the shooter, not the gun that will carry the day.

The 1911 was designed in a time where the kind of quality assembly and fitting was accepted and expected. We live in different times.

So, to finish my ramble, if left to one gun, it would be one of my Novak-built guns. I would just hate to have to give it up after using for which it was intended.

Great post by Jason, BTW. The 1* is still a viable concept, IMHO, even if price creep continues.

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No good deed goes unpunished.

I think you just made the best argument for why people (you?) should or do have custom guns built. They get exactly what they want and in most cases just the way they want it. Something that seems impossible for a large manufacture to do all while staying competitive, not to mention profitable. And it's not their fault it‘s just smart business. After all they are in business to sell to the most not the few. I think were there ever a point that a sizable manufacture could do such a task the guns would then cease to be "production" and hastily move into the "custom" arena at which point one could no longer stay under the price cap you desire.

I think again it comes down to what the wise man said, "cheap, fast, good... pick any two".

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Heirloom Precision
http://www.heirloomprecision.com

How about:

- frame with hardness of 28
- slide hardness of 42
- well fit to each other, and to the bushing barrel
- No MIM, all EDM cut fire control parts (5lb)
- front serrations
- lowered ejection port
- adjustable rear (Bomar style) sight
- fiber optic front (dovetail)
- extended thumb safety
- high ride beaver
- 25y, 5-shot groups... average of 7 loads... of less than 1.5in

For not much more than the price of a new Glock? ($660)

Get out your pocket calculators one day fellows and start pricing just the components for this gun you're looking for, and you'll probably find that they total somewhere around $1200.00 retail at a minimum. Now assuming that if you buy in quantity you can get a 40% price break, you cut the component prices wholesale to about $720.00.
Someone now has to assemble, fit, polish and blue this rascal, plus test fire, package and advertise it to the public. Also add in the costs of the plant, utilities, machinery and maintenance, tooling, insurance and the other miscellaneous items required to manufacture and sell an item.

Most everybody would like to have a Corvette ZR1 for the price of a standard Mustang, but it isn't likely to happen.

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Don Williams
http://www.theactionworks.com
http://www.ltwguns.com

I have (2) TR's and (1) Yost gun...

Master Don W. is building my second BHP Hand Phaser Deluxe Blaster pistol that can destroy not only an objecct, but any trace of it's DNA...

Mace

Get rid of the front slide serrations (poor technique, and tears up leather holsters), optic front (too fragile for hard use), Bomar style (again, too fragile, and there are many great fixed styles available) and be more realistic in accuracy requirements (can most shooters shoot 25 yd. groups/average of seven loads, in 1.5 " ? The answer is most emphatically "No". ), and plan on something closer to $1000, and you sell them until the cows come home. All the other stuff could be extra-cost options.
IMHO, that is...

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No good deed goes unpunished.

It's up to $700

I was't making a wish list. Just sharing what was out there.


With the extra $300 buck, there would be money left over to replace the sights and buy a spare holster. Getting the groups to open up...that might be up to the shooter.

Dan Wesson Valor
Seems to be about everything you want and more...

Or Springfield Loaded maybe

I am with you OL. While my custom guns and several factory pistols are capable of incredible accuracy, my accuracy requirement is that the pistol is capable of me hitting a pie plate sized target, in low light under stress, from a distance comparable to the longest hallway of my home. My $.02

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No Piece, No Peace

I would rather see a pistol with top shelf frame, slide, and barrel all fit to exact specs. Everything else use standard factory parts and a cheap park or blue finish. Would have the look of a GI gun but the tight lockup and accuracy of a high dollar custom. Over time the owners could have the guns "customized" to whatever they wanted. Plus each consumer could have work done here and there while continuing to shoot the gun. With that said I doubt the market would ever support something like that.

This is from watching buyers in the retail for way, way, way, too many years and from listening to my clients expectations. The cost of making what someone wants far exceeds what someone wants to pay.

Kimber makes about 60,000 pistols a year, (I think BATF figures 2006, someone can check the website). Now how much time, effort, quality of material and the rest can go into making a "reasonably" priced gun. To pay a living wage to a worker and the demand from the buying public for what the average retail buyer thinks is the "reasonable" price drives lower quality components, and lower wage to the worker. (outsourcing raises its evil head)

To make any product whether material or a service one needs, Componets, and Labor. You want quality product or service, there is a cost, you want less cost, either componets or laber suffer.

An axiom of business which was paraphrased above is Price, Product, Service. Pick Two. No business can survive doing all three. You will notice the Price and Product, commonly called discounters from the retailers point of view go under in about 3 years. Look around because many of use in the future will see the effect of this mindset. (Cheap loans, to the unqualified, Hmmm,). The Product, Service types seem to still be around, after 3 years.

Having had this comparison shown to me before, I will use it again, if you need a heart surgeon you are not going to shop at Wally World for him. You want a specialist who has years training, experienced, good working environment, quality tools, quality components, a support staff, to get the operation completed in a timely manner and to insure the operation is completed to a quality standard. There is a cost. Let any component suffer the risk at the end of the operation is higher. Now substitute your gun in there. You want a quality smith, it has a cost (do you want a minimum wage employee building your gun), you want quality components, there is a cost, you want the gun built in a real machine shop (operating room) there is a cost. You want tools that will maintain cutting edge, tolerances, etc. There is no real reason to go futher.

The production companies make products to production levels. That 95% of the market that reflect the consumers desire for a functional product and "functional" low prices. (i.e. the madness of "Black Friday" or the "what's your best price" types). The products are functional but do not meet the standards demanded by the top end of that specific community as the custom gun market or the other 5%.

After personally have made many dumb, best price, mistakes myself, I have personally learned the hard way, Buy the best, Cry Once.

Or as my tag line says, Do your research but you get what you pay for upfront or in the end.

Just some thoughts from one who does not need the $8000000000000000000000000000000000000000 dollar bail out but will end up paying for it.

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Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters

Do your research but you get what you pay for front end or back end
http://www.pt-partners.com
@ptpartners_tx

I think that those that know me will know that the point here is not that I want a Nighthawk at a Taurus price. For those that don't, that is not the case at all.

What I'm driving at is that the math seems rather simple.

Stated another way...

The original Kimber pistols, now generally referred to as "Series I", without the internal safeties or external extractors, always enjoyed a good reputation. I myself sold over 100 of them in my firearms retail days of 10 years ago, and I owned two myself as well. Obviously I don't know the use that those I sold saw, my personally owned guns were insignificant sample sizes, etc. etc. But, I don't recall ever getting any of those pistols returned to the shop and I never had any function problems out of my two samples other than ammo and/or springs.

The one complaint about these guns was always the MIM. Largely due to Kimber being one of the pioneers in early MIM in guns and largely due to hysteria in the fledgling years of the internet forums, this issue got blown out of proportion. But, until the Series II fiascos, the MIM was always the primary concern with these guns.

Which brings me to my question.

It appears that the current Kimber Custom II retails for $800+/-. Since they have gone back to the internal extractor this should leave two "problem" areas: MIM and Schwartz. Removing the Schwartz is a net $0 change at the production level, and in fact should even reduce cost. Changing the MIM internal parts for tool steel, again at the production level, can't be more than a $200 increase in cost, and is probably in truth half that amount at most. Eliminate the front cocking serrations and that should also be at least a small amount of savings in the production cost.

Which is what makes me wonder why it isn't possible to produce a pistol for $1k+/- that is essentially a Kimber Custom without the Schwartz and with tool steel internals, and possibly without the front cocking serrations.

Or, should I just stop trying to ask for the impossible, buy a Series I Kimber, and have a semi-competent 'smith change out the guts for me?

(wait, that's where my damn 1911 saga began! Maybe that's the problem, I should have just stayed where I was? )

Thanks for the discussion either way guys. It's been informative and the experience of the members here is exactly what I was looking for. Appreciate it.

another gun that is pretty much dead on to your request as a "production" gun is the springfield professional model. they were hovering around $2k for a long time. that is a full blown "semi custom" gun. top parts, ect. ect. but not quite up to the $4k mark of a true custom.

the scary thing to me is how much they are charging for crap production line guns, such as some full size models by a certain manufacturer starting with K.......

Rob, As an example here, I seriously doubt that in this instance, Kimber, would save any money deleting the front cocking serrations. The slides are pretty much totally machined on a CNC machining center, and it's just a simple matter of changing the program to add or delete them if that's all one wants to do. Time savings on the machining? Probably about a minute, though they would save a few bucks on tooling if they're using a proprietary cutter to do them.

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Don Williams
http://www.theactionworks.com
http://www.ltwguns.com

Les Baer makes Concept series guns and I think they are below $1500 and just lack a few tweaks that are being talked about. I dont think there is a better built semi custom gun out there that uses all steel parts and is hand built with each part numbered to that gun. The tightness is part of why I like them so much because even after high round counts they seem to just get smooth but not loose.

I love my 2 Les Baers and lately have come to realize I love them even more after John Harrison adds some tweaks. I plan on doing another Baer and sending to Harrison some time after getting hosed in taxes.

Look at it this way... the MIM components are what make it possible for that gun to be $800. As soon as you go to tool steel/forged everything you’ve got to start paying someone to fit those parts... and even more for someone who actually knows what they’re doing. By my understanding MIM, such as in a thumb safety, needs very little fitting (and sometimes not even finishing?) as it comes out of the mold. It’s basically a ‘pull part out of bin, insert part here’ type of operation that takes a minute, maybe slightly more.

Now, start with an “oversized” thumb safety (insert your favorite brand here) and that minute(s) operation can quickly turn into a hour or more when you factor in blending and finishing.

No apply that comparison to ignition components, extractor, grip safety, ejector, etc. and you have something that can’t be touched for $800 or $1000.

I think again it comes down to 'good stuff cost good money'.

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Heirloom Precision
http://www.heirloomprecision.com

I almost didn't mention the cocking serrations because I didn't want to get sidetracked on that...

Jason, is it not possible to make a tool steel part that has the same looseness that a MIM part has? Can tool steel not be made "drop in"? I'm not being a smartass, I really don't know the answer and am wondering.

I am just getting excited to start working on my build sheet with you at SHOT

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No Piece, No Peace

I think that part of the issue is that you are basically asking for the benefits of custom work and the benefits of mass production pricing in the same item. It's just not going to work.

If you want the most functional gun in the world you should buy a _______. (Glock, Sig, used prelock Smith revolver, or whatever.) Even an old Colt 1911!

Total aside: Are the guns made by the smiths here more accurate that almost every stock gun? Yes they are. That might or might not mean I shoot them better. It was a bitter pill to swallow but the most inherently accurate handgun I have ever owned was one I didn't actually shoot very well.

I guess where I'm going is that I admire the level of detail and finish on the guns that these guys work on. Some of their work helps function, but if it was only about function we wouldn't want to see all the pictures of the new build. There is no way to get that kind of detail without spending a fair bit. I think it's worth it.

Put it this way. I had a Les Baer that was an incredible shooting gun. I really liked it. I found an ad on the internet for a Colt built by a gunsmith named John Harrison. I'd never heard of him but the pictures looked incredible, and at the time I was fairly flush so I bought the gun. After the first time I shot it I sold the Baer and got in line for him to build me a gun.

Wow! Where are you buying your new Glocks? I'd do a little more shopping.

Don't know what prices are like now but when I had John Hobbs build my full house Colt the only thing saved was the slide and frame, everything else was Kart, Wilson, Ed Brown, Kings, etc. purchased from brownells and it only cost me $600-700 for the parts.

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Never pass up the opportunity to shoot somebody elses ammo.

New Glock 35's (5in) go for $580..the street price on the STI was about $600 when they came out.


Regardless...the STI Spartan is closer in price to a William McKinley ($500 bill) than it is to a Groover Cleveland ($1,000 bill). Of course, a police trade-in Glock 22 will only run a few Ben Franklins.

I find this dialogue rather interesting and timely. I, too, have asked that question a thousand times and there never seems to be a good answer. BUT, there is some middle ground, I think.




This is the first prototype of a "Kimber, by AC Firearms" . We hope it addresses exactly what you are talking about.
Details are not finalized and we are waiting for a contract, but basically all the mim internals are replaced as well as the barrel, bushing,plug, hammer,sear and disconnecter. The mainspring housing is replaced with barstock as well, and the grips will be logo'ed. theres no cheap or easy way to do it...we just have to do a LOT of them to make some money...lol.


....and I hope to have a perfeshunal pikker taker in next week...lol

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http://www.warnerpistols.com/
cvwinabq@live.com
Rio Rancho New Mexico

"I like double barrels....Aprilia, Ducati, and sxs rifles"