ltwguns.com

Ok i asked chuck and steve morrison this but figure i'll ask you guys too. You guys pour a LOT of time into some of these pieces displayed on this site. Obviously some are definately display pieces but alot could go either way from a display piece to a carry piece, I really don't know what the percentage is of guns that get carried/used hard or just get shot once or twice for the sake of resale. I'm extremely hard on my guns, i'm having steve morrison build me a full house gun right now that is my ideal combat pistol, costing me a pretty penny but i plan on beating the HELL out of that gun, i'm having it built so that i have utter and complete faith in it and know that every part in it is designed for just that. sorry i know i'm a little long winded. ok question if you guys get a gun sent back to you 4-5 years/ however long after you built it and the finish is almost gone, barrel is shot out, extractor is done, there are battle scars on the thing from use is that a sign of pride for you as a builder or is it like seeing a custom car you built show up with body damage and a blown engine? i'm curious on the diferent views. I admire the worksmanship and the talent you guys have, the guns are amazing but i see no use in having a gun built like that just to sit on a safe hoping for apreciation in worth.

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-Too many guns not enough time-

I build my customs to be used and used and used, but not abused and abused and abused. Why would anyone do that to their investment?

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CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

i don't mean intentionally destroy the pistol obviously. but i have a sig with over 20k rounds through it EASY. I'm expecting this build i'm getting back to take its place, i don't mistreat my guns but i run them hard, they are tools.

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-Too many guns not enough time-

Based upon your post I can assume you don't carry a gun as part of your employment.

I'm not a gunsmith, but an end user. Guns are meant to be used. They should not be abused.

I have been around more than a few guns that have gone well over the 50,000 round mark and a few more than have gone over 100,00. The finish wears from holster presentations, contact points such as rails wear and the gun will eventually have looser tolerances. Things like grip bushings may become loose an on some guns the frame may crack, but the same guys that build these guns can usually fix them without any problems.

Clean a gun, keep it lubricated and change its springs and pins when you should and they'll run and run if they're built right.

Guys like Ned and Chuck build guns that work. That's why guys like me are willing to wait and to pay a premium for them. I consider them an investment in keeping me, my partners and the public I serve to stay alive. I use them and shoot the snot out of them. I do NOT abuse them. I expect them to wear with time, but the wear is a sign of love and use rather than abuse.

There is a post below this one of my John Jardine built Colt. I carry that gun with me every day at work and off duty as well. It has a blued finish that rusts if not wiped down, but I do wipe it down everyday. I have every confidence that the gun will last me indefinitely as long as I do my part to take care of it. If and when it needs to be rebuilt it will go back to John if he's still in the business.

Just an assumption on my part, but I'm getting that you might think there are some differences mechanically or parts-wise in guns that are built to be beautiful traditional polished blue guns or guns that are built to be "tactical guns". Are you of the opinion that there are differing levels of quality in the parts used in guns at this level? Or have you been led to believe that a "tactical" gunsmith knows some secret processes and techniques that have eluded those who build "display pieces"? If so, the koolaid is indeed potent on your end of the internet, and you would be mistaken. At the level the LTW smiths build at, you are pretty much assured of the best quality parts installed and fit correctly for long life and reliable service. Cosmetics and finish are just that - icing on the cake, in differing styles for differing tastes. I haven't heard of your guy, but you trust him and that's OK.

As far as values go, your intent seems to be to "prove" either the gun or yourself by subjecting it to a prolonged torture test. You're going to trash any residual value you'd have anyway. It's a moot point. I think you'd find the percentage of guns built by these guys that live in safes to be small. Don't let the looks fool you - they're made to be used and they are. I don't know anyone who doesn't shoot his (fill in the blank) custom because he's trying to preserve it's value. That's just not why they're purchased.

Do smiths get offended when you scuff up your gun by abusing it? Not once it's been paid for.
They'll gladly build you another one, or refinish and repair the one you have. Price is typically commensurate with the level of work needed to restore.

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''ya can't argue logic with ignorance.''

What exactly do you consider "beating the HELL out of" a pistol?

I wouldn't consider daily carry and shooting a 100 or so rounds a week at the range "beating the HELL out of" a modern 1911 pistol assuming regular cleaning and changing the recoil spring in the interval your pistolsmith recommends.

wow, you guys are taking me wrong. I mean "beat the hell out of it" as in use the thing, i have known many people to pay 4k plus to have a gun built only for it to sit in their safe for 15 years with a box of 50 through it. Your assumption that i don't carry a gun as part of my job is sadly mistaken. i have no illusions that any of these smiths build a tactical gun with any less care then a hard chrome or any other gun or that the chosen parts are of any less quality. Please don't take it that way. my only intention was to ask if they liked to see their guns carried or babied? what do you consider a "Prolonged torture test"? I shoot alot as part of my job, i run courses when i am home, and use my guns hard. does that mean that i am just dumping mags for hte sake of wear on the pistol? no not at all. I meant no insult or offense with my question. I just know that all the smiths on here put many many hours into these guns and i was curious as to the feeling when seeing them used the same as some might use a glock. I compare it to a classic car again, some people invest 40k dollars into a mustang at a shop and that mechanic takes the time and effort to make everything perfect. Now when that mechanic sees that same mustand doing runs at the local drag strip what thought is goin through his head? i am making no assumptions either way, thus my question.

Yes i know the internet is full of internet commandos who think very highly of their opinion and i am in no way trying to assert that i am any kind of gun guru. I am just getting into the world of 1911's my go-to pistols being the standard glock, sig, HK breed before this.

Tim you in particular i have a friend who has one of your guns, he took it to a magpul course and had someone catch the lanyard and send the pistol skipping across the ground. I know he was NOT happy having just got it back from you but sh$t happens. sorry i'm getting long winded i know and probably putting myself on a NO-BUILD list, lol. I was just curious.

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-Too many guns not enough time-

I have a 1911 that Don Williams did for me about 8 years ago that is my current go to pistol. It has been shot a lot, maybe 8-9K rounds since I received it back. The pistol was carried for about 5 years and recently then replaced for carry by a Commander that a local smith did for me. That pistol has been shot also and carried everyday. Both pistols show honest wear but are maintained with a passion. I also have a safe queen, engraved and built 1911 that has been shot and carried some. That pistol probably has 3K rounds through it. All three serve different purposes much the same as my Department issued Glock that ride in the trunk of my squad and sees the light of day once a year to qualify with it, Department policy. I would think that the majority of smiths like to see their pistols used and cared for. I agree though that at the end of the day they are tools much the same as that Glock in the trunk of my squad but the pride in ownership makes them special. This is kind of like the Rolex that is never worn vs the one that is worn and has marks all over the bracelet, send it to Rolex for service and you get a like new watch back. I am sure they are glad you are wearing the watch and not just collecting them, pride in manufacture and ownership what more could an artist ask for?

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And this eternal resting place Is known as Fiddlers' Green.

I consider them all as life saving tools. They can (and should) be built, detailed, and finished to the highest level possible and this can be done in many different configurations, styles, finishes, or what have you. But at the end of the day they are all tools originally intended for one purpose and one purpose only. One of the beautiful things about the 1911 is that it can be used for other tasks (game guns and the like) but the essence of the pistol is its utility as a life saving tool.

As with all tools one has to practice in order to become and remain competent, and by that standard alone they should be used. Care should be taken to insure these tools are maintained to the level that allows them to work and work properly, but using them is the true joy of both owning and building them. What wear may occur from use is just evidence that the gun is well loved and in my opinion there isn’t much cooler than a well loved custom gun that has been allowed to do its job.

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Heirloom Precision
http://www.heirloomprecision.com

JD1, I get where you're coming from. To answer your question, when I get one back that's seen some real, true "hard use", I really enjoy seeing what's wearing, what's cracking, and what's holding up. I learn more from that than anything. And I do enjoy seeing the proof that the owner has been getting some use out of it. Check my threads "High mileage comes to town" and "XX,XXX rounds and lessons learned" (I think there are two).

I haven't heard any such in recent years, but I use to get a chuckle out of reading guys who thought there was a dif between a gun that works and one that looks great. There can be of course, but I've always said that getting one to work is largely formulaic.... as in, it's the easy part. Not that there's never a problem that goes deeper than throating and extractor tension, there often enough is. But reliability is easily enough attained that there's never a need to trade it for "fancy" on the outside. I don't think there's much disagreement on this any more.

I'd be interested in hearing your observations on maintenance, breakages and wear, tied to approximate round count.

When I am discussing a build with a customer I always explain it like this:

Reliability, durability and accuracy are not options, they are built in features. Options come in the form of ergonomic options or functional additions (sights/magwells etc), and in the level and style of cosmetic refinement. There is absolutely no reason that a gun that is beautifully executed should shoot any less accurately or reliably than a so called "hard use" gun or "tactical" gun. To me, there is really no such distinction.

Now, if someone has a beautiful, engraved, heirloom grade gun I wouldn't see any reason to carry it every day, or take it out and drag it through the mud for a training class, or go shooting matches every weekend with it. But it should be able to hold any of those roles and more and perform well if necessary.

I like to see well used guns coming back for tuneups, it means that people are using them for their intended purpose and it gives a chance to see what is wearing, what is working well, and there is really no better way to learn about your own work.

Now, on another note, I have never understood why someone needs to "beat the hell out of" a gun. To me there is a big difference between "well used and well maintained"; and "abused".

I've taken multiple training classes and shot a bunch of matches with a single gun over the course of a year, and while there is a lot of holster wear on the bluing, a few dings around the magwell, etc.; nothing is severely damaged or beaten up. To me there is nothing that says a gun has to show signs of damage to "prove" that it is used hard.

agreed, i think our definitions of "beat the hell out of a gun" and "use" are about the same then. some of the guys i shoot with away from work are not to the same opinion. they bring their glock 17 our in a soft gun wrap and unwrap the thing place it on a rubber mat on a table, do not use a holster, shoot 3 mags then detail clean and lube and put back in the wrap. I consider "beat the hell out of a gun" to be a good hard 500 round session of reload drills and immediate action drills, transition drills, etc. I take care of my weapons the way i am supposed to but that does not mean babying them either. In my line of work there are definately guys who do "abuse" their weapons though, just cuz you carry a gun for a living does not mean you know anything about maitnance and care, thats a big reason why we deploy with a armorer.

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-Too many guns not enough time-

I have guns from Jason and Steve. I shoot the crap out of both of them. Jason's gun got dropped during a range session. Got lucky, no damage. Both of the guns have holster wear, etc, but I would think neither of them would be upset to see the gun come back for a good refurbish and checkup. Besides, like Ned said, I think they'd like to see where the gun is wearing and such. Jason and Steve, I promise not to send your guns back with Hello Kitty grips on them or anything.

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People sleep peaceably in their beds at night because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.

I have to agree with the other guys. I do more bullseye guns and love to see the results shot with guns I've tuned for shooters. I guess I would feel bad if they were not shot a lot. Nothing better than having a shooter get his first 100 with a gun you made.

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www.derrprecision.com

In my opinion, its truley a honor to see one of the pistols ive built carried and shot on a daily basis. There is no bigger compliment that seeing a weapon you have personally built being used for what it was made for. If the performance doesnt match the looks then we as smiths arent doing our jobs.

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Kandros Customs Gunworks
www.kandroscustoms.com

Echoing the others.....my pistols get carried, shot and used. The get the occasional ding, scratch or other handling mark. They do not get abused as they are a tool upon which my life may depend. Guns from Jason Burton and Dave Erickson see the most carry when I carry a 1911 platform. My neighbor, also a shooter has a couple of very nice Wilson pistols, a BHP and a LW Commander built at Wayne Novak's. He will not let them touch kydex, benches them on a rag at the range, etc. He just bought a used Glock that is killing him that it has a minor imperfection in the finish....cracks me up!

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No Piece, No Peace

Steve Morrison, Chuck Warner, & Chuck Rogers [Had to mention BOTH Chuck's]
=)

All 3 are very highly regarded and respected by their peers. I doubt any of those 3 men
would give you inaccurate/incorrect/incomplete information that has not already been echoed
by the smiths that posted in this thread.

I agree, any pistol built by any of the 3 above, or others who answered, no matter how
embellished...all should be able to play a number of roles, do it well, look good and stand
up well to the most demanding shooter/user, when properly maintained/cared for.

Seems a well hard fit KART barrel would go into 80K+ rounds before its 'shot out',
by then I would want the whole pistol to be sent back to the builder for a 'look see'.
=)

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The Spirit of God hath made me, the breath of the Almighty hath given me life