ltwguns.com

As a long time Alessi devotee, I ordered myself a (5" 1911) PCH when they were first announced. I've had it for a few months now and am puzzled with it.

Everyone raves about this holster, and yes, it is a very nice IWB, *but*... it just doesn't seem like the cat's pajamas to me.

Good points:

1) It tucks the butt in real tight.

2) Height + rake work very well for 5" 1911.

3) Usual unbeatable Alessi quality.

Bad Point:

1) Design of closely spaced belt loops + "shiny side out" construction lets holster pivot out of position rather easily.

That sums up my only bitch about it, but it bothers me. I constantly find myself tugging at the gun to swivel it back into position. I'm using a 1.5" Alessi belt to go with the 1.5" loops on the holster so I don't think that's the problem. I've used various Summer Specials (that have very similar belt loop design) over the years and do not have this issue with them. I suppose that may be because they're "rough out" which keeps the holster from pivoting as easily as the PCH does. I mostly wear a VM-2 so maybe I'm spoiled with the stability of it...

I'm a real Alessi nut (I absolutely loooove the ACP and CQC/S but they're OWB, and I've never used a GWH before) and I want to love the thing, I really do, but it bothers me.

Does anyone else have this same issue with their PCH? Am I doing something wrong? Am I being overly critical about it's pivoting? Should I just trade it straight across for Fobus IWB and be done with it?

First off, I’ll make you an offer to take that PCH off your hands should you decide not to hold on to it.

I too have been a S/S devotee for quite some time and to be honest with you I never found that the rough out holster body on the S/S held the rig in place any better than the PCH... not that it might not help though. The leather “wing” on the front of the PCH, to me, seems to accomplish the same thing the rough out holster body on the S/S was intended to do. Still, if you need a rough out holster you might be able to sweet talk Lou into making a PCH suede side out. Maybe treat him to a drink... I hear he likes Scotch.

As for the loop spacing, while it works fine for me I can see that on some pants with a bit wider loops holster placement may be an issue.

Remember, keep me in mind for that rig.

I have wondered how certain holsters would fit on different body types. I think holster makers have a tough job designing a rig which will fit a range of body types; Especially IWB types!

The PCH fits nicely behind my iliac crest or hipbone. I have it on now and have tried to “pivot it out of position” and can if I force the butt of the gun down while sitting down. However, I can also do that with all of my holsters, IWB or OWB. The PCH design fits my body (5 10 170 33) well and has a natural tendency to ride in the above mentioned groove. Now for me my GWH feels a bit more solid and immobile on my hip, but is a pain to put on if I am going to be wearing my gun for less the day. I find that I am wearing my gun more often, to run an errand for instance, because the PCH has the on/off feature. I know for many who take their gun on and off several times a day that this rig is heaven sent.

I also would guess that much has to do with the type of pants that one wears with the PCH and where the magic belt loop is in relation to your iliac crest. Also just where your belt line is on your body and how tightly it is worn… I see guys wearing their pants above their hips and some hanging off their butts. I wear levis and have some jeans where the loop is in a good position and one pair were it is not at all in the right position. (Now I hear from Mr. Burton that the PCH works well with Sears tuff-skins and Jordache jeans )

I have been wearing a gun concealed for 22 years and have only recently ( two years or so) been introduced to the IWB ala Alessi and can not imagine a more comfortable system.

If yours is a right hand in brown, I will buy if from you if Burton can’t come up with the money.

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An amateur practices until he gets it right. A professional practices until he never gets it wrong. Anon

Normally a shifting holster is due to an improperly mated or non-supportive belt, even with an IWB; but since you're using Lou's matching belt that obviously isn't the case here.
It is next to impossible as a holster-maker to make one rig that will accomodate and satisfy everyone. Much as one's choice of pistol; some prefer the shorter Officer's frame, some hate 'em. Some like an Ed Brown bobtail cut, other's hate the look and feel. we're all individuals with different builds and what works for me won't work for everyone.
I pointed out in another post that just something as simple as wearing different pants with the exact same holster, belt, and covering garment can change the way it conceals. Pants waist bands can vary as much as 1 1/2 to 2 inches in height, especially when comparing jeans to dress pants, and this will raise or lower your holster/pistols ride height accordingly. And jeans have a thicker, more supportive waistband than dress pants. Royal Robbins 5-11 pants are all the "cool-guy-tactical" rage now, but with their elastic waistband I notice a big difference in support/shift when wearing a coventional front-wrap Summer Special style IWB with them.
I do believe a smooth leather IWB is more prone to "shift" depending on design. (Rosen's ARG was actually marketed as being designed to shift to allow a better draw while seated). I'm sure Lou took this into consideration and his front wing on the PCH should assist to reduce this. Even a double front and rear loop IWB can shift slightly. It is for this reason that I offer a thin suede backing on my In-Cognito IWB. By covering the entire back of the holster in thin buff colored suede, shifting is reduced and there is virtually no bulk added to the holster. Another benefit is it eliminates "sticking" to the body that can occur if a smooth-backed IWB is worn against bare skin on a hot day.

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http://www.garritysgunleather.com
"He who works with his hands is a labourer, he who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman, he who works with his hands, his head, and his heart is an artist."
(St Francis of Assisi)

I had always thought Bruce Nelson wore the Summer Special design appendix position standing perhaps slightly bent forward arms more together toward the center of the body, maybe fingers almost clasped?

I've never tried to carry anything appendix position but wouldn't a little flexibility there be a good thing? Some magazine holders have a little flexibility by design don't they?

I've always assumed anything at all with wings or with widespread snaps - as currently popular -to be worn behind the curve, behind the centerline of the trousers?

Anybody's thoughts on carrying from appendix position around to SOB?

Shouldn't some IWB's have just the right flexibility to move with the body in just the right way if worn with soft clothes? Should the effect be as if the body shared a full hook and loop system with the holster - with the accompanying ripping sounds that keep me from using Velcro in the woods

I can't imagine that tugging at a pistol in my GWH - worn under the hip pocket - wear everything under the hip pocket, in it or over it - nothing short of a deliberate draw would have any effect at all

Mr. Meyers,
I believe your correct: I recall seeing a picture of the late Bruce Nelson carrying a 1911 in his SummerSpecial design appendix carry. This can be a tricky position to conceal from. If worn on the right side for a right handed shooter, the butt of the gun wants to print and the muzzle on a 4-5 inch gun will poke thigh/groin and ride up when you sit. Ouch! If carrying crossdraw appenidx style at a slight angle the muzzle will point to the outside above your thigh when you sit, but the butt on a full size pistol can print dramatically at the centerline of the body. This is however a very fast position to draw from.
Forget about having any type of belly at all if you plan on carrying in either of these positions. The gun will print and also feel like it's rolling over the waistband, even with a full size firearm.
And correct again, all the IWBs with fore and aft loops I've seen are designed to be carried strong-side directly centered on the pants seam or slightly behind it.

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http://www.garritysgunleather.com
"He who works with his hands is a labourer, he who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman, he who works with his hands, his head, and his heart is an artist."
(St Francis of Assisi)

Mark:
Your entire post is wonderful, it covers all the advantages and disadvantages of wearing IWBs and the little quirks concerning different pants. Those elastic waistbanded pants like the RR5.11 are bad for carrying IWB. Cinch a 1.5" gun belt tight and the holster still shift, wobble and sag. Plus their rear belt loop is in the wrong place so folks who use IWBs (like a Sparks VM2 or Watch 6) or even pancake OWBs with belt loops placed far apart are screwed. The pants rear loop makes it impossible to place those pancake IWBs in the "sweet" spot.
Great post. Thanks.

I think "Kip" (Jim) makes some very good points. To me the PCH provides the ability to move into a couple of spots on my belt depending on the pants. I don't mind being able to shift the gun slightly during a long day. Between standing, sitting, and driving there comes a point where I might move it a little.

The PCH balances weight perfectly for me. Whether it is a Commander or a 5" gun it seems to keep the gun close and never gives that feeling of "squirting" out. To each his own. Short of the PCH I think the GWH is a good design, I wore one for quite some time, Lou does a great job on both holsters.

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Heirloom Precision, LLC.
480-804-1911

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
- General George Patton Jr

I'm with Steve Bailey and Kip on this one. If I stood all the time, a rock-solid, never-move-a-fraction-of-an-inch holster might make for the most consistent presentation - the pistol's theoretically always in the same place when I reach for it.

But between differing locations of belt loops on slacks, jeans, shorts, etc., and the need to slightly adjust the butt of my pistol when driving in seats with pretty snug side bolsters, I appreciate the ability to be able to do so with the PCH.

YMMV.

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NRA Endowment Member

OK, so I've been letting everyone's posts sort of soak into over the past few days.

One of the things that kept coming back to me was this statement by me in my initial post:
-and this in a later post:
When I said "a 1.5" belt and 1.5" loops", half of that was an assumption. I know my belts are 1.5" because I've actually measured them at one time. The holster loops, I assumed were 1.5" because that's what I originally ordered, but I decided that maybe I should actually measure them. Lo and behold, they're not 1.5" wide, they're actually closer to 1.75". Why this is, I don't know. Here's a pic:



See how loose this would be?

So I sent Mr Alessi an email explaining this, and he's going to make me up a replacement loop set that is closer to the actual belt size.

I sure feel like an idiot for never even looking at this sometime over the past few months. It seems like basic troubleshooting, but I just had to go and make an assumption at the beginning, and never bothered to think about it anytime since then. I'll bet everyone a dollar that the holster works perfect when I get the new loop set.

Oh well, this thread wasn't a total waste. At least it got me to turn my brain on and think about the situation.

Thanks for your help everyone. I really appreciate the input and insight, that's why I posted this here at LTW. This is definitely the highest quality firearms forum that I've ever seen. I'm real glad that you all come here to impart your knowledge to us outside the trade, it's a very valuable resource.

Glad it worked out. Lou has a way of making people happy.

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Heirloom Precision, LLC.
480-804-1911

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
- General George Patton Jr

you know what people say about when you ASSUME something right??



make an ASS- out of -U & ME !!!!! lol

Oh, I know that one well. I have it tattooed on my forehead as part of my job. I make my living doing Quality Control and troubleshooting issues just like this. That's why it's doubly embarrassing that I overlooked it in this instance.

On the positive note, I have two belts and two PCH's coming from Lou. Because of this thread, I just emailed Lou to make sure that my 1.25" belts match the PCH loops. See -- there's always a positive side to most things (at least for ME)!

I think I told Lou to make my PCH I just ordered with 1-1/4" belt loops about a half dozen times... and I don't think I even looked at this topic until after I ordered it.



Seriously, I already think Lou is da man, and I don't even have his holster yet. Great guy to deal with.

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Sean Smith
"Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that?" -Jack Burton, Big Trouble in Little China

"All's Well That Ends Well"

On Monday Lou said he'd be making up a new set of loops that would fit the belt better. On Wednesday afternoon I get a Priority Mail box in the mail containing a new set of loops. Installed them on the PCH and tried it on. It fits a million times better now. I'll wear it around for a while to make sure all is well, but I have no reason to believe that it won't work just perfect from here on out.

So now I can join the ranks of all the other PCH Zealots and sing it's praises far and wide.

And here's a BIG thanks to Lou for his phenomenal service! It just doesn't get any better than this. Thanks Lou, I really appreciate it!!

If you have to. First, please send everyone who posted a money order for anything over $100.00, that covers the secret handshake. If you actually want to make Zealot status, that will cost you again. Dinner and drinks for all the current PCH Zealots which will get you the keys to the executive outhouse and open bar area.

Glad things worked out. Lou must be slipping a little, only two days to get your stuff back to you.

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Heirloom Precision, LLC.
480-804-1911

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
- General George Patton Jr

What my cohort Steve forgot to mention was that the next level of membership is going to require you to fund an evening of certain “leggy” entertainment.

I'll chime in on the PCH. I ordered one from Lou for my Sig 239. After a lengthy wait it arrived about a month ago. Well I have worn it off and on untill this past week when I wore it everyday. This is one of the best IWB holsters I have ever used. It was worn for approx. 39 hours straight from Wednesday till Thursday in a variety of postitions from sitting in uncomfatable hospital chairs to sleeping in a uncomfatable hospital couch with no complaints from me. The holster held the 239 no matter what I did or where I sat/laid. Great job Lou....

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And this eternal resting place Is known as Fiddlers' Green.

In regards these two posts:
Don't I get grandfathered into the Zealots club by way of owning a PCH from the first production batch Lou made back in November?

If not, I've found another PCH group called "The Clan of the PCH". While they don't have a secret handshake (yet, they're new), they seem like a pretty cool group anyway (and they claim that not only is Lou a member, but so is Tony K).

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Oh, and back on topic, after wearing it for the past 40+ hours, (including sleeping in it, but you guys do that too, right?) I'm giving it my official Stamp of Approval. It is the most comfortable IWB I've ever worn. I don't know how Lou did it, but the holster keeps the butt pulled in nice and tight against my Love Handle, yet not so tight that it's uncomfortable to wear for long stretches. The bottom of the holster also doesn't "bite in" to my upper thigh, like so many IWB's tend to do on me. You've truly "hit this one out of the park" Mr. Alessi, and you have my thanks, not only for the holster, but for the customer service that came with it.

Well, let us solve it this way. The Clan of the PCH guys will fight the Zealots in an Ultimate Fighting Challenge style match. Both groups can only wear their pajamas. The first group to the ring wins. Clan guys...you go first.

Enjoy your win. Cause the Zealots are not going out there with their pajamas on.

BTW, it is a great holster. Most figured the Summer Special or the GWH was a hands on winner, until this one. Good stuff, glad everyone is happy.

_________________
Heirloom Precision, LLC.
480-804-1911

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
- General George Patton Jr

Thanks gentlemen! I can go to bed now, and sleep in peace!
Luigi

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Alessi Holsters, Inc.
You'll never know it's there, until you need it...

No, not until you finish another batch of PCH's!

Hey Black Talon,
Maybe us West-Coast folks are last to get ours because of the postal service from NY to CA. I'm SURE Lou has nothing against us way over yonder! Do you?

I wouldn't think so hoser. I've been waiting on my PCH, belt, and mag pouch since January 3rd! I'm going bonkers, well my wife say's so anyway, with me chaseing the brown truck's around town like a mad dog, until they drive past my house! I'm in TN, just a bit closer to NY than you West Coast folks.

Wendell

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Today we did what we had to do. They counted on America to be passive. They counted wrong. --- Ronald Reagan

Well, the mail usually delivers last to TN because your state is the home to the "Inventor of the Internet" and the post office is angry because email is hurting thier business.

So we'll let you know when ours arrive. Great things come to those who wait. I've waited for Lou's stuff before and have never been disappointed!

Easy there hoser, or we'll be sending him back USmail to good old Calif. to keep MS Feinstein and Pelosi company Together they could build the best postal company in the world!

Wendell.

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Today we did what we had to do. They counted on America to be passive. They counted wrong. --- Ronald Reagan

Touche! When it comes to wacko leftists, we got our fill out here. You'd think Lou would feel SORRY for us out here and give us "frontsies" before they ban the use and sale of holsters in CA (because they're used for guns of course AND the use of cow hide too)!

Why not; they've already banned kangaroo-hide and a few other exotics there. I prdeict within the next few years all Californians will have to resort to Mexican carry!
Of course, there's always Kydex...

_________________
http://www.garritysgunleather.com
"He who works with his hands is a labourer, he who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman, he who works with his hands, his head, and his heart is an artist."
(St Francis of Assisi)