ltwguns.com

What can anyone tell me about the ASP?
I have read the info at Modern Pistols and all but I am more wondering about how functional they were? I really am intrigued by the guttersnipe sights.

What are they worth?

I see them selling for absurb amounts on some of the auction sites and I also see some of the DeVel guns which look somewhat like the ASP selling for crazy prices on those sites as well.

Did the DeVel has Gutersnipe sights?

Anyone have one for sale?
I do not want or need something thats NIB as Id like to have something like this as a carry piece.

I have a Beretta 92F that has the grips and mags cut like the DeVel and ASP so you can see how many rds you have left.

OK
over 100 reads and no one has any info?

Come on guys... I know someone here has to have some real experience or know more about these than the basic info you get via the websites which have a small page telling the specs and what it was made for.

What are they worth?

Am I asking about a taboo subject here or something?

Also, why hasnt anyone done those types of grips for a 1911?
It would work nice with some of the mags already out there....

The only ones I have encountered were shown at Wayne Novak's website. He owns several and has them pictured there. You may want to drop him a note. Dave

Good Day,
The ASP.
I owned and carried one as a duty/off duty sidearm sometime in 1981 or '82.
It was small, beautifully crafted, comfortable to shoot and carry, smooth and functioned flawlessly and accurately. (the sights took a fairly small amount of time to adjust to)

I hated it more than any handgun I have ever owned or shot.
It screamed "EFFETE". "DILLITANTE". "POSEUR". "PIMP".

I carried the "thing" (as I called it, to my smirking wife's amusement) in a Seventrees belt scabbard and I creeped myself out carrying it until I was able to trade it away to a guy who was transfering into IA. (for what I do not recall. The trade. NOT the transfer. For that I know)

I re-armed after the trade with an H&K P7 9mm (Null Holster) and I felt quite comfortable and mentally simpatico with my sidearm.

As a collectors piece the ASP is nice to have. for a Worker Bee who may need to use his sidearm, the ASP is an example of less IS less.

If you want one because you want one. Get it and be happy. If it is for a work assignment, re-think the need and mission. There are better and more professional items available these days.

A good and boring day to you.

Joel Ariel

"If someone tells you he is going to kill you,....believe him."

_________________
The mature gentleman sitting quietly in the far corner, sipping Lagavulin and very much enjoying the "Stan Getz's CD.

dnovo,

check your mail.

J Yagoda, give me a call if you want some info on the ASP's

You can get a set of clear grips for a 1911 from Carbon Creations, just tell them not to put the layer of carbon fiber in the panels.

Josh

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I too have always been intrigued by the ASPs and the specialists they were designed for. A question for our wonderful smittys on this forum. I know that the current S&W 3913s incorporated alot of the features of the early ASPs, so how hard would it be for one of you to recreate an ASP in modern day form using a 3913 as a base gun??? Which one(s) of you would be willing to undertake such a project.....Don, Tim, any others?? I am anxiously awaiting some input on this one!!

_________________
"There is a true glory and a true honor, the glory of duty done, the honor of integrity and principle."--Gen. Robert Edward Lee

I personally always liked the avant garde...I always wanted to do something other than a beavertail. I worked on two TSW team guns and a couple of 745'S. (REMEMBER THEM?). Would be interesting.

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cvwinabq@live.com
Rio Rancho New Mexico

"I like double barrels....Aprilia, Ducati, and sxs rifles"

WOW

Thank you for all the info here and in messages.

Josh, I am going to take you up on that and give you a call next week.

JR, I am quite familiar with the ASP and it's construction, so I will attempt to tackle your inquiry.
The 3913 actually has much more in common with the Devel 39 Full House than the ASP. In fact many of the features on the 3913 or more accurately, the 469 were copied from the Devel. When S&W introduced the 469 it kind of marked the end of chopped 39's. After Theodore built the ASP he tried selling the design to S&W and basically got laughed out of the building. It took them a little while to figure out that a compact 39 would be a good idea. The chopped Devel's came about because Kelsey got frustrated waiting for Theodore to build his gun. So he went about designing his own, which is superior in function and design to the ASP, IMO. OK, enough rambling.

Building an ASP to spec on a 3913 would cost you more than buying an original ASP. It would be much easier to build one on a 39/439 as the originals were, but not much cheaper. And there is really no need to do a conversion as the Smith has everything the ASP had that one would require for CCW. The exception would be the ammo indicator. Contrary to some of the myths out there, the gun was never issued to any clandestine Govt. agencies or prevalent as a spook gun. The mystique of the ASP was due to Theodore's marketing. Just leaf through a Seventrees catalog and you will see what I mean. For its time, the gun was light years ahead of anything else, but there are a plethora of guns out there today that surpass what the design of the ASP represented. Basically a S&W 3913 IS the modern equivalent of the ASP and Devel.

The prices people are asking for ASP's right now is somewhat outrageous. Especially when you consider how many were made. I have "several" ASP's and never paid over $1000.00 for one, even for the original Seventrees version, of which their are less than 250 conversions.

_________________
Bulman Gunleather
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(814)696-8615

http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg147-e.htm
http://www.hmss.com/qbranch/qb0101.htm

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Tony T
The only guns I like are those with triggers..

I was searching around the internet for a set of 39 grips to cut down for a 639 chopped gun I am working on and found a place that makes replacement ASP grips. I am going to order a set and see what they look like. I am also going to enquire if they can be made from a clear polycarbonate (they only list solid colors). I will post what info they provide.

Josh

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Bulman Gunleather
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This is getting VERY interesting.

Thanks guys.

_________________
Sic Semper Tyrannis

Josh and crew...thanks for the replies. I was aware that no agency officially "adopted" the ASP, but I grew up near a retired "spooky-type" that always told me he had carried one for a short while, this was in the late 70's or early 80's when I was old enough to start studiying the military sciences and history in depth. I always gravitated towards special units/ special ops types and as Witherspoon can testify, I still do!! . I have no reason to doubt my friends statement about carriying one, and at the time I didn't have access to photos or much info on them (pre-internet days). When I finally did start coming up with info and pictures...a fetish was born!! I understand that there are currently better weapons available, but I love the "different" things and the classics too. Also, I cannot believe I forgot Charlie Kelsey and Devel in my original post above! My friend Bill Alexander of Alexander Arms knew Charlie and had just spoken to him a week or so before his untimely death...I wonder along with everybody else what great things he may have come up with next had he lived!
Josh, wanna sell one of your many ASP's to a young man who has never had the chance or pleasure of even firing one??
Witherspoon said he would buy it for me as a retirement present, and I may even let him shoot it some!! PM me if you ever do decide to part with one....seriously....even if I have to sell a kidney for it!!

_________________
"There is a true glory and a true honor, the glory of duty done, the honor of integrity and principle."--Gen. Robert Edward Lee

I already asked Josh if there was anyway he would part with one and he said no

If anyone here is selling one, I am first in line.

Please let me know.

I owned 2 ASPs. One New York gun, one Wisconsin gun. One of the best carrying guns around, especially with the Seventrees holster. Very thin, flat, and smooth. But! The Guttersnipe sight was total BS. I tried shooting with both the original metal and the later plastic version. Couldn't hit crap consistently 'at close combat range'. Yes, I tried the quick, flash, rapid motion, whatever you want to call it, 'technique', still couldn't hit a small patch well at close range and forget it at say, 25 yds. The breaking point came when I was at a range testing some other guns and decided to pull the ASP I was carrying to check it and to refresh the ammo. First shot, out of the holster, flash sight, (you know-what you would NEED in a dusky, hot, 'wet situation', 'down South' while operating 'without dip protection' )-CLICK! and again, CLICK!!!! I could've determined the cause of the malf but by that point I was fed up with the whole BS of the gun(s). I think I traded/sold both within a week. One even had a set of ivory grips. I never looked back.
I did talk to the ASP guys in the final days about ordering a new one with optional Millet sights instead of the Guttersnipe but I never followed up.
The DEVELs appealed to me somewhat, though.

J. Yagoda wrote:

"I already asked Josh if there was anyway he would part with one and he said no

If anyone here is selling one, I am first in line.

Please let me know."


If an ASP from Armament Systems and Procedures WI will satisfy you (these are the ASP's that 95% of the ASP owner's have), then you should be able to get one without too much difficulty.

They frequently come up for sale on the internet and, in the past, ESF Sales (esfsales@bellsouth.net) usually had at least one in stock along with Bren Tens, Devels, etc.

HTH

John

I'm sure several intel agents carried one, but not to the extent that people think. As I said before it is mostly hype. Keep looking you'll find one. Erv at ESF gets one in every once in a while.

The trick with the guttersnipe sight is to focus on what you are shooting at, and not the sight. Your brain will figure out what to do with the sight. I never had too much trouble with it at close range, but then again I don't focus on my front sight at close range, until about 12 yards. The guttersnipe is worthless in low light, making the gun obsolete for CCW as far as I am concerned. But, they are still cool guns.


Josh

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I have to comment here, re: Intel Agents carrying the ASP.

From 1971 until I retired in 1991, I was employed by the Feds in the South Florida area. What may be considered a somewhat active area for the trade.
The last years were devoted to Intelligence and operational work with many Operational and Analytical types of manyagencies assigned to multiple agency taks forces.

The Analysts never carried anything that went bang. They carried lots of ballpoint pens and early model PDA's, They NEVER carried weapons. At least not legally.
I can recall only one. He did not last in the job.
Most were not very interested in firearms or their use.
Those that were managed to transfer within their agencies to Operational duties if they were qualified. Not a regular occurance.

The Ops types(stateside) usually carried issue, i.e. Sig P228,<and similar> or less often a pretty regular 9mm S&W or in the case of the Bureau at times a S&W or a 1911 in .45acp.
Feds do not allow much flex in caliber and not much in type.
Usually nothing very sophisticated or urbane, a la the ASP.

I have found it (the ASP) to be a bathroom mirror gun. (great for posing in front of the glass to see how the shoulder holster looked) My name is Bond. James Bond stuff. Not for those who actually carried firearms for a living. My experience with Fed type Intel and LE people did not reflect many using a shoulder holster. To see one was a fairly rare occurance and usually indicated a newish officer/Agent.
Those who carried it were either Office Commandos or IA types.
My short adventure with the ASP was based on a tour with a desk.

UC work simply does not mandate odd or memorable firearms but rather the commonplace and concealable.Nothing should stand out, either the person or anything about that person.

I have owned and carried a lot of firearms in my 32+ or so years of LE/Intel and most of the time the weapon of choice was a serious bit of metal in serious modes & calibers, and the only forays into the bizarre were soon consigned to career history.

My very best to all,

Joel Ariel

"If someone tells you he is going to kill you,.....believe him".

_________________
The mature gentleman sitting quietly in the far corner, sipping Lagavulin and very much enjoying the "Stan Getz's CD.

Josh and Joel,
Thanks for your replies.....to repeat what Witherspoon said, this is getting very interesting!! I do understand completely the limitations of the ASPs and even the Devels, I am also a LE officer and as I have already said, I have several friends both active and retired from Special Forces and Fed LE work. I have just always had a fascination for the unusual and "special" weapons items of the past (and present). Now if I could also just get my hands on a good DeLisle Carbine to go with my ASP!!! (And yes I realise that they are from 2 different eras, but it's MY dream and I'm stickin' to it!! )---John

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"There is a true glory and a true honor, the glory of duty done, the honor of integrity and principle."--Gen. Robert Edward Lee

I'm with ya JR...I still have a powder blue suit,loafers and vaurnets...waiting on a Daytona convertible I can afford(YEAH RIGHT!) but its a dream deal right?......lol

_________________
http://www.warnerpistols.com/
cvwinabq@live.com
Rio Rancho New Mexico

"I like double barrels....Aprilia, Ducati, and sxs rifles"

...Its those desires that drive the market.

_________________
http://www.warnerpistols.com/
cvwinabq@live.com
Rio Rancho New Mexico

"I like double barrels....Aprilia, Ducati, and sxs rifles"

I wil never forget the time about 15 years ago when I was "given" a like-new ASP by my then boss and about 500 rounds of assorted ammo and told to "wring her out".

I quickly figured they called it the ASP as shooting it was like fighting with a snake. It was too slick for a service weapon. Performing a clearance drill was tough as there was nothing to grab on to.

It wasn't especially reliable either, but particularly poor once you dropped one of the uber-cool cut-out mags in the dirt.

The sight? Well, I have always said "Throw them in the Gutter, Snipe!". (I think I stole that from Ayoob). Impossible to use past 7 yards with any precision. Much worse than the dreaded Ashley express crap. Much worse.

A way cool piece of cold war Rube Goldbergitis and thats about it.

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Absolutely the best reason I can think of for getting an ASP is because you want one.
There is none better.
If I gave any indication that your search or interest was invalid, I sincerely apologize.
The possession of something based purely on desire is perfently good and is as old as man and his collection of art, regardless of it's form.
I used to acrue LOTS of iron, but in the last ten or so years I have reduced the number of items greatly.

I now maintain a relatively select core of what I call serious pieces; each with a defined and specific purpose as they relate to my requirements.
I occasionally add or reduce the number based on my precieved need.

I very much wish you well and vacariously share in your enthusiasm and joy.

Joel Ariel


"If someone tells you he is going to kill you,.....believe him".

_________________
The mature gentleman sitting quietly in the far corner, sipping Lagavulin and very much enjoying the "Stan Getz's CD.

...I think Mr. Ariel put it as well as could be said.

_________________
http://www.warnerpistols.com/
cvwinabq@live.com
Rio Rancho New Mexico

"I like double barrels....Aprilia, Ducati, and sxs rifles"

Yep.

_________________
Sic Semper Tyrannis

There are two reasons that people associate the ASP with spies. The first is that Paris Theodore lent his personal ASP to the Commanding Officer of the American Embassy security detail in Saigon during Vietnam. The second reason, and undoubtedly a more famous one is the guns connection to James Bond. John Gardner, who wrote 14 continuation novels had Bond carrying the ASP, starting in his 4th book, "Role of Honor". In all but 2 of his further Bond novels, 007 carried an ASP. Ironically this book came out in 1984, the same year that Armament System stopped converting the M-39. I've talked about this with the author who had Bond previously using a Browning, HK VP70, and HK PSP. The gun was recommended to him by a police detective that wrote to him. However, after about 20 years the name of the officer eludes him.

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If you are looking for the Delisle Carbine you may want to look here.

This may be old for all I know but I just did a quick search and ran across this

http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.htm

http://www.valkyriearms.com/delisle.htm

Right on guys!!! My replies are as follows:
1) Chuck it is the desires like these that drive me INSANE!! (I'm in a good place for that, huh?)
2) Joel....no offense taken friend, and thank you and Josh for all the excellent info and advise.....as you guys said, it is purely a "gotta-have" for personal satisfaction.
3) And Anthony, just rub the salt in friend , if your old boss wants me to volunteer to continue wearing out that old ASP you had, I will do so begrudgingly, heck...I might even supply my own ammo!
4) J., I know about the Valkyrie DeLisles...and have actually played with one, neat...but it's on down my list somewhere after some customs from my favorite smittys on this forum.
Thanks again guys for all the replies and the voices of experience. And Josh, check your PM's for the address of my FFL for the shipment of that certain piece of metal!!

_________________
"There is a true glory and a true honor, the glory of duty done, the honor of integrity and principle."--Gen. Robert Edward Lee

When I get some free time, I'll take some gun pron ASP pics for you two.

Josh

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Bulman Gunleather
http://www.bulmangunleather.com
(814)696-8615