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New to this forum. Great information (and entertainment as well)
I did a search and found some information about the 9 X 23 requirements but I'm hoping someone can pull it together for me.
I have a couple of 1911 .45s and recently bought a new Colt .38 Super. If I understand correctly my .38 Super can be modified to shoot 9 X 23 and .38 Super interchangeably. I'm guessing that means the same .38 Super magazines can be used for both. Looks like I will need to have a 9 X 23 barrel fitted. an 18.5 lb spring, change the extractor and........here's where I'm not sure. What other springs and part changes are required to have a gun shooting both?
Any advice about details would be appreciated? I'm in central Virgina.

OK, mechanics first. New barrel, you're done. No need to fuss over extractor, springs, etc. They're all the same.

Why a 9X23? If anything, factory ammo for Super is more common. If you're going to reload, there is nothing the 9X23 does that the Super doesn't.

I don't want to sound too much like a curmudgeon, but I don't see the point in the 9X23. I'm sure someone does, so you may be in for an interesting discussion.

I carry a Nowlin Commander in 9x23... WOW is it a fun shooter. Great ballistics and accuracy to boot. It also has a 9mm barrel and spring for cheaper target practice. The 9x23 is also pretty mild feeling for such a hot load.

I'm by no means an expert... but the biggest difference I remember was that the brass for 9x23 is much stouter around the base than the 38super. Both are good, but 9x23 is better. Also I believe able to load up a bit more power f/the 9x23. Ballistically speaking almost identical to fully loaded .357 Mag rounds.

Your mileage my vary... but this is what I recall when doing research about 2 years back.

Is the bullet diameter difference of .001 or .002 of concern when shooting .38 Super in the 9 X 23 barrel replacement? Also, with the 9 X 23 being hotter will gun parts on the base .38 Super wear more?

No difference in bullet diameter. The Super runs .355" as does the 9X23.

If you load the 9X23 hotter, yes the gun will wear faster. However, "faster" is a relative term. The USPSA/IPSC Open shooters run Super/9x23 ammo that boots 125 jhps to 1325 fps, or 115s to 1440. They replace barrels somewhere past 50,000 rounds. (It depends on the powder they use, and the shooting rate individual guns experience.)

So, how long will it be before you've shot 50,000+ rounds?

Yes, you can get more from a 9X23 than from a Super, but not much, and only by increasing chamber pressure. There's no magic in it, just a slightly stouter case, run at a slightly higher pressure.

Teh biggest difference is that the .38 Super is a rimmed cartridge and the 9x23 is not. It strip out of the magazine easier, which is really only an issue in the hi-cap guns. To answer the original post, I have a Colt Commander in .38 Super that will feed 9x23 and .38 super interchangably. I buy .38 Super Comp brass from Starline, which is the same as 9x23. Richard Heinie built the gun.

I acquired a factory stock Colt 9x23mm 1911 with 5" barrel several years ago. The kit came with a .38Super barrel which can be freely switched back and forth. The magazines are identical. Both barrels are non-ramped style. I also bought a full case of Winchester 9x23 ammo at the same time since there's no certainty Winchester won't drop the cartridge as an orphan. The round is 124 gr. JSP and brother it is HOT! It chronoes at around 1,500 fps over several of my chronoes (I'm a chrono geek too ). I was quite impressed that the brass shows no puffing even without a ramp. I put the .38 Super barrel in to shoot milder ammo. I run .38 Super race guns with hot handloads with Ramped barrels. I would expect you can fit a 9x23mm barrel and be good to go.

_________________
Bob

Smiths and 1911s are what it's all about!

I have a Caspian-based Commander in 9x23 Win. Boy do I love this pistol!! It's been bob-tailed, French bordered, had the slide top flattend and serrated - the whole nine yards. As noted earlier, the only change needed would be the barrel. It has a ramped barrel but if I had to do it over again, I think I'd opt for the regular style. The main problem I've encountered is lack of ammo. I don't reload and finding ammo is a major head-ache, especially since this pistol is 9x23 Win. only. Only Winchester and Cor-bon make factory loads. You can find it on-line fairly easily but it's spendy.

I've got a 9X23 Colt as well, and I'd like to have it "worked over". Anyone have any recommendations for smiths that don't have a waiting list over 18 months?

is a great cartridge.

It offers an honest to goodness 125 grain bullet at 1500 fps in factory ammo out of a 5", basically duplicating a 6" barreled 357 magnum factory load.

No .38 super factory load comes close.

I have 2 9x23 guns built by Jim Garthwaite (who also carries a 9x23) and one from EGW.

They all work well with super.

For magazines-I use Wilson .38 super mags with an ISMI replacement spring. They end up holding 9 rds of 9x23. I add the metal lo-profile pads and have a $30 magazine that works 100% of the time and locks back 100%. No worries. Metalform mags work fine too.


The main advantage of 9x23 over super is the availability of serious factory defensive ammo.. For a practice load, Atlanta Arms loads a .38 supercomp with sierra bullet match load(rimless super) that works fine in my guns and it is right at 170 power factor and $12.00 a box when you buy by the case.

For clarification sake:

9x23 is a tapered case and is the same round dimensionally (external)as 9mm SuperComp

.38 SuperComp is a straightwalled, rimless case, as is .38 TJ.

.38 Super is a semi-rimmed, straightwalled case

I also know that if 9x23 ever dries up I will just go back to shooting Super or have my guns rebarreled to 9x19

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My impression is that a 9X23 barrel will wear surprisingly fast - somewhat like the .357 Maximum - if I hotrod the 90 grain Sierra for shooting ground squirrels otherwise no surprises. Fitting a pair of barrels - Dan Wesson .357 Maximum style - might well make the 9X23 a useful and fun pest control pistol.

Although I carry - and have substantial stocks of - the Winchester Silvertip I might move to the CorBon with the Barnes all copper bullet. CorBon loads the .38 Super and the 9X23 to the same external ballistics with the Barnes bullet. My understanding from CorBon is that they tested bullet performance once and loaded both cartridges to meet the same acceptance tests - I may have misunderstood.

I don't consider any of the many many 9mm bore by 23mm or .900 long cartridges or cases to be the same or to be precisely interchangeable though they may be used for many of the same purposes.

In particular I consider the true Winchester 9X23, and perhaps the Hornady TJ case to be stronger than the Starline Super Comp - this matters to me given the shortage of pressure tested data with new components - I also have a stock of Winchester WAP - said to be available under another name from another vendor and a stock of SP2 to match listed data or to experiment with. When I experiment I use Winchester cases exclusively.

Today I would not bother with a 9X23 for daily carry - I consider the CorBon/DPX combination in .38 Super to be just fine for my needs - which include arthritic hands - although obviously no better than the 9X23 I currently do carry. 9X19 loaded long does a fine job for many other 9X23 applications for much less effort and money.

I do stock up - frex Midway has been clearancing their Winchester brass and I bought all the remaining 9X23 Silvertip stock from a couple of Sportsman's Warehouse stores when they dropped the 9X23 Silvertip (oddly it had been on the shelf at old prices - the store first marked it up to new prices then discounted so the clearnace was more expensive than the regular had been the day before).

In sum the 9X23 lacks cheap components and tested loads but performs as well as anything in the market place to meet my particular needs.

Dane Burns (Burns Custom Pistols) has a real good wright up on the 9x23
on his web site. He would probably be the guy to ask when it comes to the 9x23.

I have a 9x23 Winchester custom 1911 that you can search and find on this site if interested. I cannot compare it to .38 Super on first hand accounts as I have never fired the super, but as mentioned above the 9x23 brass (Winchester brand) is very stout. The cartridge runs around 60,000psi IIRC, basically at rifle pressures. I shoot a 115g load at 1700+ fps, 124g at 1500 to 1550 and 147g at 1400fps. I do not think that the Super can match those numbers but I could be wrong.

Price wise ammo is not chep but not all that expensive. The last batch of Winchester White Box 124g JSP I bought was 10.50 a box but I think it is probably closer to $12 or $13 a box nowadays, that's for 50. So not cheap like 9mm but not any worse than most .45 factory loads. A box of 50 of the Silvertips is around $22 or so. IMO, that means it is not that expensive to shoot 9x23. You can also do a 9mm barrel fitted to the gun for true low cost plinking.

To me, the 9x23 Win gives .357 Magnum performance with 10 or 100 shots on tap before reloading. In addition, it is available in a much more concealable format than a .357 revolver. Is it necessary? Well, let's just say that most of the stuff we see here is not always necessary (at least my wife says so) but it doesn't mean we don't NEED it

I have the 5" 1911 mentioned above and I am also building a Commander the same way and also a SVI hi cap in 9x23. Have fun.

I suppose most of the readers here get discounts I don't?

Winchester's current as of today Thursday 22 March posted - list - prices for 9X23 are

124 gr. USA Jacketed Soft Point Product Symbol: Q4304: Box [of 50] MSRP: $27.56

125 gr. Super-X® Silvertip® Hollow Point Product Symbol: X923W: Box [of 50] MSRP: $48.31

Times 10 for 500 cartridge case lots.

Cases at list are: 9x23mm WSC923WU [case @][$] 709.2 [bag@] [$] 35.46

Myself I can't really afford to plink with a 9X23 and lost brass matches hurt they really do!

There's an awful lot to be said for long loaded 9mm!

Brass @ $28.39/100 $134.85/500
http://www.grafs.com/metallic/product/121433

Winchester JSP @ $19.99/50
http://www.grafs.com/ammo/product/121203

Winchester Sivertip @ $33.99/50
http://www.grafs.com/ammo/product/121739

Never go by manufacturer list, very few products are ever sold at suggested list. Looking these up though has illustrated just how much it has gone up in the past 4 to 5 years, but as we are all coming to see all metal related products are going up in price. I believe it is from the increased cost of transport due to higher gas prices as well as the large increases in raw material costs.

If anybody is actually shopping Winchester brass Midway is clearing the brass at a very attractive price - best buy is the 500 pack - the 1000 pack is more than twice as much. I have some factory primed I bought at 10cents apiece from Powder Valley - no shipping, I was there - too but that's the very old price.

My general observation is that chronographed speeds for the 9x23 tend to run erratic in the sense of a higher than typical variation/ standard deviation - sd is fair piece of the speed but maybe that's just cheap chronographs and bad conditions - so quoted averages might be exceeded or missed on any given shot.

I don't get much current data from the bullet makers and powder sellers either.

I'd like to see somebody do a full pressure series ballistic lab style with controlled variables, including especially temperatures - I used a lot of Blue Dot in hot 9mm loads and that is known temperature sensitive. SP2 seems a little erratic but my stock is aging too - though by no means old. 9x23 is an enthusiast's/hobbyist's cartridge and for sure more fun to play with than most in a 1911.

I'm learning a lot here and hopefully contributing a bit.

Clark: I am a chronoholic and handload virtually everything I shoot. I have bought and used every chrono out there except Oehler(I use a buddys). I chrono factory ammo for knowledge and have noticed substantial variability as a generalization. Much more variable than my handloads except when I'm checking Unique or 2400. Weather conditions have a significant impact and that's why the serious chronographers build a light box. I may do that soon. I also have learned to throw out any reading that looks hinky.

_________________
Bob

Smiths and 1911s are what it's all about!

Thanks everyone. An education of good opinions. Last question, does it matter which manufacturer's 9 X 23 barrel I use? I see Baer sells them. Brownells has a few different makes. Is one decidedly better than the others and a more natural fit for the Colt?

I'm a fan of Nowlin barrels for 9x?? and .38 Super.

_________________
Bob

Smiths and 1911s are what it's all about!

I used a Barsto bbl. that started life as a 9mm tube and my 'smith had them ream it out to 9x23 Win. They even added the correct head-stamp to the barrel. I've been very pleased with Barsto. Nowlin, Les Baer, or Jarvis would all be good choices. Although they don't make 9x23 bbls. specifically, Kart, KKM, and Schuemann could be easily converted.

9x23 is a fantastic round, I have a couple 1911s set up for it...

I see 9 X 23 barrels advertised as "supported". Is that what my smith will need to fit my Colt .38 Super? What's the difference?

I would expect the supported barrel will not fit your Colt if the frame is stock. Supported barrels require a space to be milled in the frame to accept the ramp attached to the barrel. Do not try this at home

_________________
Bob

Smiths and 1911s are what it's all about!

Hi

Not sure if anyone has looked at this, but what is the velocity loss in a 4 inch barrel with factory loads?

Or, in other words, is it worth getting a 9x23 barrel for my 9 mm commander?

Richard

Anthony, Do you use the ISMI replacement mag springs for a .45 ACP mag in your Wilson .38 super mags, and where do you purchase them? I have a 5" 9x23 that runs perfectly except that it has problems locking back after the last round. Does not exhibit this problem when shooting .38 Super, so I am guessing that the mag spring is not strong enough to get the follower in place when shooting the faster 9x23. Thanks--Hogplt

Richard,

I have done a number of chrono stdies with various barrel lengths. I don't have a 9x23mm Commander but I would expect velocity loss to be in the range of 50 to 100 fps. This is not a significant difference for a PD weapon since you're starting at 1,500 fps.

Have fun and stay safe.

_________________
Bob

Smiths and 1911s are what it's all about!

Outside custom one-off installation work is a 9 X 23 pistol actually in "production" anywhere? Did someone's limited production originally get the ball rolling on this caliber and then orphan it?

They are the SSC-2 springs. They work perfectly.
In Brownells they say "Not to be used with Wilson mags" I think that was put there from pressure by Wilson's..ya know, so they could sell their own springs..

_________________
"The most effective armor is to keep out of range"-Italian proverb

CHECK OUT MY CUSTOM 1911 BLOG
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JMR,

More or less. Colt and Springfield offered a small number of production guns in 9x23 Win., but they both ended production several years ago. Les Baer used to as well but after looking on their website, it appears as though they don't anymore. As you noted, it's pretty much a custom affair. The most economical way to get into shooting 9x23 is to get a 1911 in .38 Super, then find a barrel and have it fitted. A heavier recoil spring might also be advisable.

In conversations with the "inventor" of the case, John Ricco, the 9x23 was designed to drop into an existing .38 super chamber with just an extractor tweak (if needed) to assure reliability.

Since most factory Super chambers have been cut with old or worn reamers, about 50% will not accept the 9x23 case as it is .008" larger at the base than the Super.

ANY factory ramped or unramped 9mm or .38 Super 1911 can run with 9x23 as long as the round drops into the chamber. Anyone who says otherwise just hasn't tried it. Guns set up for 9x23 will likewise chamber any .38 super case also.

The ultimate setup is probably a 9x23/9mm para switch barrel gun. Shoot .38 Super, 9x23, and 9x19 all with the same gun. Priceless!

_________________
"The most effective armor is to keep out of range"-Italian proverb

CHECK OUT MY CUSTOM 1911 BLOG
http://thearsenalofdemocracy.blogspot.com