ltwguns.com

Ok,

As you know, I had my 70 "retro-ized". Upon shooting it the stock GS digs into the web of my hand (note, it's not "hammer bite") to the point that after 100 rounds I get this...
i3.photobucket.com/albums/y97/Trumpet1/Miller.jpg
(note, I took that as soon as I got home from the range..it's easier to see now since it's scabbed up)

Two little cuts the exact width of the GS. Now, I shoot "high thumbs". When I grip the pistol, the stock GS puts enough pressure downward on the web of my hand that it turns "white" around it (like when you apply pressure to a fingertip, etc) and it leaves marks in my hand when I let go. When viewed from the side the GS is all but invisible, absorbed by the "meat" of the hand.

Now, if I try an "old fashioned" low thumbs hold, there's no pressure and from the profile the GS is still visible.

I presume this is because the original grip safety was initially meant for shooting "low thumbs"? Can any of you shoot comfortably for a long session with "high thumbs" using the stock grip safety? I guess if it were an "issued" weapon, and I was relying on a rifle with the pistol as backup (ie..you aren't going to use it unless things get really bad, and at that point you have bigger issues than hand comfort), and the likelihood of shooting more than 100 rounds was slim-to-none, then I guess it would be OK. But I usually like to shoot 200 rounds min per session.

I really wanted to "make it work", but I'm beginning to think that I need a beavertail.
Thoughts?

Yes and no. These issues that you have posted in recent threads are part of the reason I did not want to sell you a RRA way back when. You just don't know what you want, let alone what works for you. The result is a lose-lose situation for both parties. Unfortunately, I have a feeling that you and Bob will be pulling your hair out for some time to come because of this. Research, and trial and error are very important.

At this point, I think you should consider shooting for a while to find out what else you don't like. Then dump it, and have one built the right way: with specs that have been carefully thought out.

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damian@adcofirearms.com
http://www.adcofirearms.com

Because everyone's hands are different, there can be several correct answers to the question. It's obvious that a GI grip safety tang isn't going to be as comfortable as a beavertail because because of the sharp corners and the lower point of contact that your hand stops against. WHen I carry bevel a pistol that the owner wants to retain the stock grip safety, I hold the GS in place and scribe grind lines where the frame tangs meet the GS. I make certain that any corner that's exposed to the hand from that point has the edge thoroughly rounded off and blended in to the surface adjacent to it. This rounding off goes all the way to the end of the GS tang, which is rounded off itself. You can see it pretty well in this picture.

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I have several Colt 1911 pistols. I prefer the stock grip safety to a beavertail. I have taken training classes and shot close to a thousand rounds without any discomfort from the stock grip safety. However, as Mr. Harrison stated the sharp edges must be rounded-off to prevent pain and cutting of the hand. Just send it to one of the smiths, or, in a pinch (pun intended) you can do it yourself with a filing strip using the "shoe shine" method.

HTH,
John

Damian, I know what I want. The question is; will what I want work for me? So far 90% of it does.

I don't see how it's a lose-lose situation. You even say that trial and error is a part of it, so if it's part of the process (thereby expected), how is it a losing proposition?

Perhaps I don't see it as glumly as you do. The trigger issue is easy to fix, and the other is a matter of either more dehorning or just adding a beavertail. I knew full well going into this that the stock GS may not work.

I don't need to shoot it anymore to know what I want different; smooth the trigger face and either soften the GS or add a beavertail.

I have thought this out a LOT over a period of years. So please don't dismiss me as one who makes rash, spur of the moment choices and don't insinuate that Bob didn't build the pistol the "right way".

I asked here if anyone had similar experiences with this particular situation, and all you offered me was condescention.


Mr. Harrison,
Thank you so very much for your input. It is greatly appreciated.

Rich

I understand your problem. For my size hands, I appreciate the benefits of of a beavertail safety on most of my 1911's. I find it more comfortable and easier to shoot well with. To satisfy the purist and collectors i do keep a couple of NIB Colts to preserve history. As for my frequent shooters, they all wear beavertails.

God Bless those who enjoy the original grip safety and small sights. At my age, I need easy to see sights and a beavertail to do my best shooting.

Handguns are like shoes. I cant pick out a pair for my neighbor. However I do know what feels good on my foot.

Good Shooting Sir

"Trial and error" as in "try" a factory GI spec gun before you contract someone to build you a custom rendition of your own, ending up making an "error" in judgement".

I am sure Bob built the pistol the right way, he built more than a few for me when he was at RRA, and did a damn fine job. I just think you spec'd it wrong. How else does one find out, just know, after shooting 100+ rounds (or whatever) that the gun doesn't feel right.

You seem to take my experience today, just as you did a few years ago. That's O.K. It's your gun. Work it out. But if you ask for opinions and help on a public forum, on which I participate, expect the simple truth. That's all I give.

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Have a beavertail fit like the rest of us with large hands routinely do! It makes a lot of sense if you like to shoot.....retro is cool looking... that's about it.

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For yes, on a dedicated .22 rimfire conversion with an original 70 series frame smoothed just a tad with an almost imperceptible trim on the original hammer spur, light trigger pull with replacement parts and an extended safety to match my larger bores for a thumbrest. Nor did I have a problem with bullseye softball guns but that was a different grip.

For no anything with a larger bore.

I'm sure there are folks out there who can shoot high round counts with grip treatments that would leave my hands bleeding; I had more calluses myself 40 years ago.

No question in my mind, and I could quote others of more experience and authority, that the vast majority need a beavertail for high round count on hard kicking guns.

I have large hands, and can absolutely take or leave beavertail grip safeties. I have guns with ultra high-hold fitted beavertails, guns with drop-in beavertails, guns with both styles of G.I. safeties, and as long as there are no sharp edges, don't really see a big difference among them. I'd think those with small hands would benefit most from the beavertail, as all the removed material allows the hand to get deeper into the gun, while those with large hands have enough trouble trying to find room on the frame for both.

dont know if this helps, but I like the "retro look" and always got really badly hammer bit and GS bit (big meaty hands, and i take a really high grip)...

I had a YoBo 1* basic build done for me, and it didnt bite me at all...whatever Ted and his guys do to minimalize that worked very well for me....

Hi Rick,

My experience has been the opposite. The wide beavertail keeps those with smaller hands like myself from getting a high hold by preventing the web between the thumb and pointing finger from getting " up and around" the beavertail. The thin width of the stock grip safety allows those with a smaller hand and web to move up and around more on the grip safety and achieve a more advantageous grip. Actually, my stock grip safeties are reshaped as well as beveled to provide the best grip for me. Of course, YMMV.

John

I suppose taking any one part in isolation makes it hard.

I prefer a short trigger, thin grips, extended thumb safety, highride beavertail - but the front strap radius has to match the beavertail has to match the trigger has to match the grips - and then it's optimized for one hand, optimizing for two hands would be just a little different but I figure optimizing for weak hand is best - master hand needs less help and two hands need very little help at all.

This is the most confusing post I have ever read.

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Hard work pays off

With all of the retros being done has anyone in the aftermarket business designed a retro style grip safety that will allow a higher grip? If not, is there some way to customize the original without distroying the retro look?

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Larry

Just to answer your question, no I do not have that problem with a good GI GS. But, I prefer a properly shaped beavertail either way. (med-large hands are stuck on my arms)

Now, it really should not matter what works for me or others, and that's why your post is a bit confusing. Are you asking for help with your shooting form or help in making more alterations to your Colt?

With all due respect, I think you answered your own question. You're bleeding at the range and that's the bottom line. Why on earth would you even think of altering your shooting style (which I've assumed works well for you) to "make it work" on a weapon you had customized? If this is a carry weapon doing so makes even less sense.

Now, if you're new to 1911's and your gunhandling is under development that's another issue. There are people who can help.

Trumpet,

You've gotten some excellent replies here. The one thing that stands out clearly is that each shooter has a different "mix" that works for them.

As to your specific situation... I would guess that if the "bite" that you're getting is resulting from contact with bottom edges of the tang and not from pinching between the hammer and the tang, that additional dehorning on the GS will probably solve your problem.

It's also possible that your physical grip itself could be partly to blame. If you happen to be not seating the pistol completely in your hand, it's possible that the weapon is shifting more than an acceptable amount under recoil. This could allow the pistol to rock back in the hand with enough force to cause your discomfort whereas normally, it wouldn't shift but rather push back and down on the web of your hand. I've only seen this happen once, but it was an issue my wife experienced years ago when she was first learning to shoot.

Hope this helps. Talk about it with Bob. He's a good 'smith with plenty of experience. Yes, it will probably cost you a little hard earned "green" to get it the way you want, but you'll get there. Just be prepared to invest in labor and shipping to get your ideal end result.

Mark.

For the record...

I'm not new to 1911's, however this is my first "real" custom (I count my Nighthawk as "semi"). Anyhoo, as GotSand pointed out. It doesn't take thousands of rounds to realize that bleeding "doesn't work".

Anyway, I talked to Bob about it and it's getting a beavertail. As Anthony put it "retro looks cool...but [for me] that's about it".

Thanks so much everyone, especially Bob!

Rich

High grip, high thumbs works just fine with a standard style gripsafety. Parts selection isn't the problem. Hard edges on the tangs and gripsafety are the problem. Proper treatment of these edges will result in the blood supply staying inside the hand. Mr. Cooper taught me that

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TR

Trumpet,

Ted's post made me go back to your previous thread when you got your gun back from Bob. I then noticed that your gun has the longer Commander grip safety that you are using with the Commander hammer. If you look at Ted's picture, the stock Gov't model grip safety has is shorter than your gun. If you went back to the stock Gov't model hammer and grip safety, and properly relieved the sharp edges on the frame tang and grip safety, that would probably take care of your problem.

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Ted