ltwguns.com

Are there any other Second Chance veterans here? It'd be great if we could get a little thread going and share with everybody what an interesting, great time it was.

Sweeney obviously went for several years-- that's more or less where I met him. We've noticed that a lot of the names we associate with having been at SC for years, are now involved in the gun industry in one way or another. Mike Shovel is a good example-- he was there for many years and is now a big wheel at CorBon.

I was big on pin shooting but there were guys who were WAY more serious about it than me. I'm sure a lot of guys shot 1,500 pins in a week there.

Although the Second Chance shoot is no more, pin shooting is not dead. There is a club about 90 miles from me that has pin shoots in the winter at their excellent indoor range-- we shot there last weekend. Over the years there have been various clubs within an hour of here that had pin shoots-- they were great for warming up for Second Chance. Most are no longer doing it.

Steers roasting, Hanoi Jane urinal stickers, the Mercenary Benz, trailers loaded with prize guns, Nedley and his 1897.........

Good times, good times.

_________________
CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

I never made it to SC, and regret it. I shot locally, but that was it. Had I heard the stories that I heard later, I sure would have tried harder to go.

What was the last year for it anyway?

As Ned was saying, many of the local shoots have dried up, but others have sprung up. I would say there was about the same number of shoots as there used to be...just in different places.
It's not like IHMSA, that has almost dried up and blown away.

It's almost 10 years now.... 1998 was the last Second Chance match. Sigh.

I was trying hard to get there in, I think, 1997, but it may have been 98. I'd hate to think that the only one I tried for, and missed, was the last one.

Was there really a "Book Depository" shoot on the side one year, where you could try to duplicate Lee Harvey Oswald's (or whoever's) shot and nobody could?

Yes there was, and actually a couple guys did. There was a 6.5 Carcano with a low-buck scope, a moving target, and a window to shoot through.

Don't forget the Bernard Getz subway shoot........

_________________
CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

Let us just say that Richard had then, and still does today, a whacky sense of humor.

Like the "Tower of Murder" shoot, where you had to do a full-magazine dump form an MP5 straight down (20-25 feet) into a wading pool full of ping-pong balls. Your score? How many could you sink or blow out of the pool!

I remember that as being called the "Ball Buster".

Who'da thought a person could actually get tired of the sound of an MP5 going 30 straight.... but when it goes all day long, once every five minutes or so, well......

Yea, that's right. He got the idea from the Flash Gordon strips, where Ming had his Tower of Murder.

For being a fantastic host, and an amazing inventor, my impression was the Richard just didn't "get" competition. He'd design matches because they seemed fun, and then be a bit grumpy when the serious competition types quickly figured out the trick to winning the game.

But boy was it fun.

I made it to a few Second Chance Shoots in the early to mid 80's IIRC.
Lots of fun to say the least.

I went twice in the 80's, but only as a spectator/cheering section for a friend who shot both years. Through the 80's I made it to most of the big shoots, and I remember Second Chance as being the most "interesting" group of competitors!!

_________________
Tommy C.
NREMT-B
NRA Life Member / TSRA Life Member

hey ned, what was the name of the range you went to recently for pins...

Not sure the name of the club but it's in Holland MI.

This the one? It looks like they host pin shoots.

Tulip City Rod & Gun Club
http://www.tcrgc.org/

Steve

ok, wrong range. i was thinking of topgun near the gibraltar trade center

I was there and had a blast! Shot a lot of ammo and met a lot of fine people. I remember talking to Richard Davis and he said he was good friends with John Bianchi. I told him I shoot the Bianchi Cup. He said The Bianchi Cup you can shoot PERFECT for a week and in two seconds you can loose the match, HERE(Second chance) You can shoot terriable all week put it together for two seconds and win a gun! I always remembered that. J.Michael

I shot pins in Holland MI this weekend and had the usual good time. They run a lot of folks through there on a Saturday and still manage to make it a quality event..... as always it's not the place, it's not the stuff, it's not the sign out front, it's the people. Thanks to all of you at the tulip City Rod and Gun Club for your hard work in putting these matches on.

It's the people and not the place, but what a place. Wide enough for nine tables of pins, so three shooters at a time. Classes are
.22 limited
.22 open
small bore L
small bore O
big bore L
big bore O
ladies
....plus, carbine and SMG, I don't know exactly how they classify or categorize those.

I finally fired some shots in "anger" out of a .50 GI. Apologies to my South American customer to whom it is on its way, but I ah, had to test fire it for you, lo siento! I did not do so well with it, and I was not having a bad pin day-- I believe it was just the wrong load, more specifically, the wrong bullet. It doesn't seem like 300 grains of .50 caliber inertia could not do well on pins, but I believe the low velocity (725 or less) plus the particular bullet I was using, a TMJ with a very small meplat, caused off-center hits to knock the pins sideways instead of penetrating them and taking them off. Whereas, in .45 I'm using a 215 Keith-style wadcutter with a large diameter meplat..... at about 1000 FPS. I believe the wide meplat or a large-diameter HP bullet is more forgiving on shots that are, say, 1 1/2" left or right.

The .50 GI with the 300 grain Gold Dot, at 725 or greater, should be a great pin mover. It has a HP diameter about as big as a 9mm bullet.

Met a guy using 300 grain bullets in .45. Folks were experimenting with that at Second Chance back in the mid '80's. I think for the most part they found it not worth it. This guy was really taking it to new lengths-- as the bullets are so long, they seat so deeply into the case that they get down to where the web is thicker, causing the case to bulge outward, making rounds that won't chamber. His solution-- turn the bulge back down in a lathe. He admitted it was a problem, he gets case separations, but has never had a case rupture. I don't consider my pin load an extreme, on-the-edge-of-disaster load, but I did have a case rupture two years ago. It was my first though, in three decades of shooting pins, and it was an off-brand case that snuck in to the batch. I am very scrupulous about which cases I use for pin loads but that one got by and blew the Hoags off my pin gun..... well, it cracked them anyway.....

dmiculek, I remember you, and Elliott too. Been seeing his name again in a few places.... I gather you are still into it too since you are here.....

Ned, thanks for the AAR on the 50 GI. I too would have assumed that a 300 grain bullet .50" in diameter would slap pins silly. But newtonian physics cares for no man's opinion.

Bruce and Gary Britt were experimenting with 300 grain .45 bullets in the early 1990s. I met them one day at the club when they were doing some testing. We had one bullet bounce back (full 300 grain weight, we found it) and the thought of catching such a bounceback in the shorts was enough to dissuade us from further testing.

I played with 260 Speers for a while. They put a whack on a pin but I found many pins where the back 1/8" of the bullet was actually sticking out of the pin. The soft, exposed-lead nose would go in and flatten out and the bullet would not fully penetrate.

In the shorts or anywhere else for that matter-- ouch. I've gone through weird periods of being a bullet magnet at pin matches. You see them coming and know it's gonna hurt like hell but there's not quite enough time to actually get out of the way. I suppose they're doing 250 FPS or so. As Al Pacino said in Carlito's Way, "Here come da pain!"

The ultimate lead magnet was Mas. I was on the line one time at SC with a camera, taking photos, when I heard not one, but two bullets in sequence go past me, towards Mas.

People made fun of him for wearing a kevlar groin shield. I'd wear one too, if I had been hit as many times as he had.

Now who can fault a guy for keepin' the jewels in a vault ?

I've seen two or more guys go down after taking a bounce-back-- like 90% knocked cold. Stunned for a minute and then OK.

Once witnessed a ground-breaking experiment investigating the utility of a 9mm BHP as an elephant gun wherein the crux of the recipe for success was totally unfounded faith in overly hard-cast, hopelessly under-lubricated, commercial 158-grain LSWCs that were better suited for ballast than bullet metal.

Preliminary results proved beyond doubt that it really is possible to blow the grip panels right off the gun, particularly if using the aforementioned, ill-fated projectiles loaded in recycled "range brass."
Heh. Who's counting?
Lucky you: Beats being a pin magnet at bullet matches every time.
I'm not Mas - and I don't play him on TV - but it's a pretty safe bet that neither vanity nor flattery will get you nowhere in a thread such as this one.
"Us" (aka, Them).

Why do you ask?

Hmmm ???
Sounds like Taser® training on dry cells: So many targets, so little time.

That is all.

-ArtCrafter

ArtCrafter, you have an unusual and convoluted sense of humor. Perfect for this thread

9mm Major came and went, then came back from what I understand. I never fooled with it. VV 3N37 was supposed to be the path to it.

I've tried many different powders for my pin loads-- VV 3N37, HS6, HS7, AA#7, VV340. I alwasy come back to Blue Dot. It's the only one that gets me there without problems, although Mr. 300 grains mentioned above did recover one of my cases the other day and pointed out that it was rather bulged. I re-work up the load with every change in Blue Dot lot# since it does seem to vary a little. I think I skipped that part last time I loaded these-- I shoot so few pins these days. What's left of this batch will have to be tossed or pulled down. Don't want to have to repair the Hogues again

I just dabble in local stuff, every now and then someone has a local pin shoot, but the tables are wood
Elliot and Annette (big into Icore and Steel) got back into shooting and now shoot part time for S&W.
It's good to see the familiar names here and elsewhere on the web.

In 1983, I had been shooting with the Canebrake Shooters in Thibedeaux, La. and been bitten by the "Second Chance Bug" after hearing all their stories. I loved to shoot pins, and my new wife even enjoyed watching, so we saved up and planned the trip to Michigan. I sent in my entry fees and started planning the trip in detail when my wife discovered she was pregnant. I gritted my teeth at my wife's attempt at putting a monkey wrench into my plans, but after figuring out her due date, and how we would manage the cost of the trip with a baby on the way, we decided we could still make it to the shoot. Then more news.....TWINS! This was the straw that did me in, so I sent a letter to Richard Davis requesting to cancel my entry and refund half my fees, as it was after the posted "drop date" for full refunds. Richard was kind enough to give me a full refund, and a nice letter of congratulations. Never got to go to the "Big One", and every now and then, when my wife sees me glaring at her for no apparent reason.......she knows why!

Well, you really missed something, but for the right reason. I mean reasons.....

I shot pins yesterday in Holland, MI. Wanted to test out some new Federal defense loads, the 230 HST and 185 XPB, which is Federal's loading of the Barnes solid copper bullet being used in the CorBon DPX line.

I also had a chance to try some of Guncrafter Industries' new Solid copper Hollow Point loads in their .50 GI caliber. 185's at 1200 and 230's at 1000! They are lathe-turned and slotted. The 230's especially, are great on pins and bolster my suspicion that if Second Chance were still on, the .50 GI would be the hot ticket.

I autopsied one pin. These things are really hard and there often is not much penetration. Somebody was shooting a light, 200-grain LRN .38 load and they stuck in the pins with up to 1/4" of the bullet base sticking out. I would say these were just a few FPS short of bouncing off, always a hazard when pins are being shot.

One guy was shooting his .45 ACP, 300-grain load but his gun was not running so well. This is old-school and works but at the velocities he's at there is a big bounce hazard.


A Federal 230 grain HST HP.



A 230-grain, .50 cal (1000FPS) .50 GI solid copper HP. Went into the inner cavity after taking the pin off very smartly!





"Inny" made by a .50 GI 185 SCHP. I was tipped off by the eight rifling marks transferred to the pin's casing. The .50 GI uses 8-groove barrels. O'course the large, neat hole punched in the casing, I kinda figured the big, sharp-edged hole in the GI bullet might do this.



I am a well-experienced pin shooter, but not a perfect one. This .50GI bullet was a marginal hit; plowed into the edge of a downed pin and skidded off, into this pin that was next to it. Her you can see the large HP and slots.

Ned maybe you need to talk to Alex about some M16 platform rifles in 50 GI for our troops in Iraq/Afghanistan. Could be the next HOT ticket.

_________________
www.originalmetaloy.com
'Original' Metaloy Hard Chrome
TactiKote® Polymer Finish

*1983-2008 25th Anniversary*

Big news, you heard it here first and before anyone else on the 'net!

**** EVENT ALERT ****
BODY ARMOR VISIONARY RICHARD C. DAVIS BRINGS BACK
THE ANNUAL “PIN SHOOT” COMPETITION AFTER A 18-YEAR HIATUS
Central Lake, MI – January 12, 2017 – Bringing back a tradition nearly 40-years in the making, Richard C. Davis, the inventor of soft concealable body armor, the creator of the Second Chance™ Body Armor Company and founder of the historic Pin Shoot competiton, www.pinshoot.com, today announced the rebirth of this unique shooting compeititon.

First held in 1975, the annual shooting contest, open to all safe and compeitive shooters (pre-registration required), ran for 24 years. The 2017 event, sponsored by Armor Express, features an array of shooting events including the 5 Pin Main Event as well as eight unqiue optional events for solo shooters and teams utilizing pistols, rifles and shotguns. This week-long competition will feature a series of shooting competitions, a review of new and innovative weaponry and protective solutions, and real-life stories from active and retired servicemen. Additionally, Presidential Medal of Valor Awardee and Armor Express SAVE, Brian Murphy, will share his account of the 2012 Sikh Temple Massacre in which he was the first officer to arrive at the scene, shot 15 times and survived thanks to his body armor system.

WHO: Open to all safe and competitive shooters. (You must be registered to be on the premises). The first day is open to the general public, after that it is closed to the shooters and their registered guests.
WHAT: The world’s original, biggest and best competitive bowling pin shoot hosted by the inventor of competitive bowling pin shooting and concealable soft body armor.

WHERE: Davis Acres, 3220 Muckle Road, Central Lake, MI 49622
WHEN: June 9th – 16th, 2017

In total, there will be 10 pin tables and a new event called the Big Push, which will require the use of .44 Mag – S&W 500 to be competitive. The match will have the 5 pin main event, along with a series of competitions for a 2- and 3-man team, mixed doubles, 1-man shotgun and revolver event, and more. Gunsmith services will be available at the event, and the General Store will be onsite, providing ammo and other items for sale. There will be a number of prizes awarded, including the lastest in firearms, and attendees will also have special access to the latest tactical armor offerings from Armor Express.

“The idea for the Pin Shoot was born more than 40 years ago. What started as a chance to interact with local law enforcement, turned into something far bigger than I ever imagined. We had about 25 competitors show up for our first event, and demand quickly grew, culminating in over 500 registered shooters. Over a 24-year period, we held 24 events with attendees coming from all over the world. It provided a chance for me, and many within our Company to compete against the world’s finest officers, while developing friendships which have stood for the past four decades. After an 18-year hiatus, I’m excited to bring the Pin Shoot back to life, marking Pin Shoot #25,” stated Richard Davis, founder.

For more information on the 2017 Pin Shoot compeition, please visit www.pinshoot.com or contact pinshoot@gmail.com or call (231) 350-0135.