ltwguns.com

So... a newbie question about the utliity and issues with front cocking serrations.

I've noticed a dislike for them on this board (sometimes stated, sometimes implied) and was wondering about the reasons for it.

I see a couple:
- Holster wear if not dehorned
- Not the 'classic 1911 aesthetics'

I have them on a Kimber CDP and like them; I have them currently on the list for the Springer that's at Yo-Bo. But I was thinking about it, and admiring Steve's pictures of the blacked out Springer without them and trying to fit everything I want into the budget I have (not that I'm not most of the way out of that already, but...)

So. Reasons for and against; I'd love to hear them both. I'll just get into my Nomex suit over here and await the replies...

Personally, I can't see a legitimate reason for them......and they ruin the aesthetics for me. I can
shoot a gun with or without 'em, but if I'm looking for a gun that is attractive as well as a user,
gimme the slabsides everytime!

Personally, I like them, both from an aesthetic and functional view point. To me they look cool and I use them to pinch check the chamber on a regular basis. I don't claim to be an authority though, I just know what I like. My pistol is in an LTW shop right now receiving a set.

I am on both sides of the debate. I machined them myself on my Kimber compact but on my S.A. that is being built ''retro'' at Yost/Bono will not have them. For me it just kinda depends on the gun. Where as my gun on Rodgers waiting list will have them when the time comes.

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''ya can't argue logic with ignorance.''

oooooops sorry double post..........

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''ya can't argue logic with ignorance.''

As a holster-maker I hate them because even dehorned they will play hell on the interior of a holster no matter what the lining is.

As an LE firearms instructor I hate them even more. Who the hell came up with a modification that encourages people to put their hands near the muzzle?? Years of teaching that there is absolutely no reason for your fingers to go forward of the ejection port shot to hell when someone asks "Then what are these here for?" ....

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http://www.garritysgunleather.com
"He who works with his hands is a labourer, he who works with his hands and his head is a craftsman, he who works with his hands, his head, and his heart is an artist."
(St Francis of Assisi)

Thank you for saying what I've always been thinking!


Brian

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Brian

I knew that was comming. I too am an L.E. instructor and here are my thoughts. All shooters place their hand forward of the ejection port everytime they pickup an AR or shotgun, yet, hopefully, they do not place their fingers over the muzzle. I suspect that the fingers are not much closer to the muzzle on a 5" w/ cocking serrations than on some of the very short j frame revolvers or ankle autos without them. Of greater concern to me is the fact that, arguably the most common LE issue gun- the glock, has no safetys at all other than internal or on the trigger bar itself. However, we issue them in droves and say something like "your finger off the trigger is the safety" My point and its relavance: At some point in time the operator has to take responsibility for operating the machinery correctly not the machinery for operating the operator, otherwise none of us would ever be able to shoot anything for fear that we would all "put our eye out". Many of these discussions are more relevant to the training and dilligence of the operator than the gadgets themselves. Just my $0.02- and of course, $0.02 may be about all its worth.

Hmmmm. I always thought that front cocking serrations were a conspiracy from you holster makers. It wears them out faster so you can sell more!

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Dave Berryhill
Berryhill Custom, LLC

Well said Tradewind.

Mr. Berryhill, did Oswald act alone?

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Heirloom Precision, LLC.
480-804-1911

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
- General George Patton Jr

Duh! I thought everyone knew that it was Bobby and Ted!

I've always agreed with Mark that encouraging people to put their hands near the muzzle wasn't a good thing but after doing research on the MEU(SOC) 1911 I can see that they have a purpose under some circumstances. The Force Recon guys train to shoot under adverse conditions (mud, water, dirt, etc.) and usually wear gloves. They found that front cocking serrations really helped them manipulate the slide under those conditions. However, they do train a bit more than most shooters do.

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Dave Berryhill
Berryhill Custom, LLC

Hm. Thanks for all the opinions; well worth asking and I appreciate not needing the Nomex.

I think, overall, that I'll be deleting that part of the order before the guys get to working on it -- which was the decision that I was mulling over anyway.

Can the front cocking serations be removed from the slide leaving the slide tapered like a Browning P35?

Sure, I've seen this done alot of times.

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Sean Smith
"Hey don't worry, I can handle it. I took something. I can see things no one else can see. Why are you dressed like that?" -Jack Burton, Big Trouble in Little China

One thing that I do like about front cocking serrations is that it's very hard to sweep your weak-side elbow with the muzzle, while using a "hand over the top of slide" grip at the front serrations. When you go hand over the top, using the rear serrations, it's a lot easier to line up the muzzle and elbow.

The shame of it all is that it's useful to have them for manipulating the gun, but they are so hard on holsters and (to most people) hard on the eyes, too.

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shop.HarrisonCustom.com
www.HarrisonCustom.com

The grand essentials to happiness in this life are something to do, something to love and something to hope for.

Does anybody have pictures of this? Does it hurt the slide? Will the slide be more prone to cracking etc?

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Lester Wang

I have a Wilson Combat Sentinel that has the front of the slide tapered like the Browning, but the Sentinel uses a cone barrel without a bushing. I was wondering if the cuts in the slide for the barrel bushing would leave the front of the slide too thin to reliably retain the barrel bushing.

If you scroll 2/3 of the way down on the following link you can see a 1911 done by CT Brian with Hi-Power cuts. Also Paul Leibenberg (I hope I spelled that correctly) seems to do a number of these treatments. I can't answer if it makes the slide more prone to cracking. I get the feeling that it doesn't but I'll leave it to the experts to answer that question.

http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/vie ... php?t=1355

How is this? Tim really needs to work on those carry bevels. That was a beautiful gun.

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Heirloom Precision, LLC.
480-804-1911

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
- General George Patton Jr

Thank`s for the grafic explanation Steve, that`s a perfect picture to show a beautiful example for the topic in mention, thanks for teach us.
btw: so nice and clean lines just look`s perfect!!!!!
but..... this explains one part, now some pic of the other example would be very educative.....not just IMO I think.

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Alex NossaR
www.nossargunleather.com

Oh! and a technical explanation somehow about the weakenig of the slide will be excellent...

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Alex NossaR
www.nossargunleather.com

Sorry to disappoint anyone, but (if done correctly) those cuts don't weaken the slide.

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CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

Thanks Tim,
thats what i thought all this time, but i have to got a comfirmation from one of the experts.

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Alex NossaR
www.nossargunleather.com

Great Picture.
I have and Ed Brown Hunter-Target (long slide) and an Ed Brown Classic Custom that I would like to have the front cocking serations removed.
Who should I send them to?

I'm aware of only one way to get a carry bevel so perfect looking......
TIME!!!!!
and of course patience, skill and a discerning eye for detail.

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http://www.rogersprecision.com

<><> Doesn't anyone use the rear
serrations for press checking,,, or
am I the only one...

What I do is hold the pistol in my
strong hand with a firing grip,,, with
my finger off the trigger...

I then put the rear cocking serrations
between the first and second fingers of
the support hand with the thumb of the
support hand on the hammer...

Then disengage the thumb safety with the
strong hand thumb...

While pushing down on the hammer I squeeze
the two fingers together and pull back on the
slide...

That works for me without putting any part of
my hands near the muzzle...

It works on all my 1911's from 3" to 5",,, and
everything in between...

==================================

<><> Raspy <><>

Welcome Raspy. To answer your question No, I don't think you are the only one that does it that way. Myself included, however, some folks like 'em and some don't. The most important thing about this thread is if you want front cocking serrations, then get 'em. If ya don't like 'em pass on it. JMO I could be wrong.

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Heirloom Precision, LLC.
480-804-1911

"If everyone is thinking alike, someone isn't thinking."
- General George Patton Jr

I do it the same way, but many "instructors" are one dimensional and the only proper way to do a "press check" is via the front cocking serrations. I can use my trigger finger to feel if a cartridge is present at night as I hold the slide to the rear with the off hand. The way I see it, I know I loaded the gun and if need be, I know I reloaded the gun, why do I need to check and see if it is loaded?? Maybe I am one of those armchair commandos, but I have participated in hundreds of narcotics search warrants, etc.

The military may have a need to do a press check prior to executing a search. etc, because of various policies prohibiting from carrying a gun with a chambered round. I, however, know my gun is loaded, because I loaded it when I started my shift, or reloaded it if it was necessary. I use the exact same method you use. While many distinguished instructors advise you to continually check your gun to make sure it is loaded via the front of slide press check, I agree you can just as readily do it via the rear cocking serrations. If I am stupid enough to execute a warrant with an unloaded gun, then I deserve to be shot; that's my take on the whole thing, YMMV.

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John Del Pinto

There. Fixed it for ya, Chuck.....

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CT Brian Custom
'Blending Art With Firepower'

<><> Didn't mean to hijack the
thread... As you can probably
figure out I don't care for them...

None of my 1911's have them...

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<><> Raspy <><>