ltwguns.com

I'm having a full house custom done by a friend and I'm trying to decide on what finish I want.

I know that I want a polymer finish in black (not to dull not to shiny) but I want to know which one is going to be the best for normal wear & tear and holster rub.

Birdsong Black T
Bear kote
ArmorTuff
Duracoat
KG Gunkote
or any others out there that I don't know about. Thanks for the help.

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Never pass up the opportunity to shoot somebody elses ammo.

Same scenario for me Frosty18! Compact done in anodized aluminum. Looking for best finish in super dark grey / light black w/ textured parkerized look. What polymer finish to use?????????

I was about to bring this topic up too. You beat me to it.

I'm personally leaning towards the Roguard or Armor-Tuff finish. It seems to be the hardest finish of the polymer bunch. Possibly due to it's metallic properties (Molybdenum disulfide) for lubricity and hardness. It has great corrosion resistance, abrasion resistance, adhesion to metal, and the lifetime warranty is nice too.

I would like to hear what others have to say and recommend. I personally want to try boron carbide, but I have yet found a place that will offer that type of finish. The abrasion resistance is in a league of its own. Not sure of corrosion though.

I have a Les Baer SRP with the Bear kote and have no complants with the quality of the finish........ and it's not to shiny but not to dull.....

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Gary Pennington
email........ brewdog57@hotmail.com


I've learned age is a very high price to pay for maturity

Black-T. Not only a great finish but excellent customer service.
You don't talk to a receptionist you talk to Mr. Walt because he answers the phone.
Have had a shotgun, pistol, and several knives done by him.

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''ya can't argue logic with ignorance.''

Frost, All of the aforementioned finishes will eventually show holster wear, since they are by nature, soft as compared to something like chrome or nickel. However, I was told by Walter Birdsong that it's not so much the holster, but the dirt and dust that gets into the holster that wears on the finish. He advised me that wiping out your holster with a damp cloth or blowing it out with an air hose occasionally would help with this. As an aside, Black-T is a different finish than the others mentioned. Black-T is a Teflon and graphite mix (of a proprietary formula), that is applied over two undercoats. Best,

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Don Williams
http://www.theactionworks.com
http://www.ltwguns.com

To add some possible additonal information; My understanding is that most of the bake on finishes, with the black-t being at least one exception, are produced by the same wholesaler and then purchased by various manufacturers who then put thier own proprietary name on the finish i.e. Wilson, baer, springfield, Kimber? My further understanding, after some research, is that they all are challanged with thier ability to withstand abrasion. Having said that, even with abrasion, most still offer excellent corrosion resistance. It does seem that proprietary ceramic finishes like boron carbide or tungstan DLC would offer a great alternative, perhaps the mecca of dull black / grey finishes- I have information that this is what Sig uses- good luck getting it appled on "your" 1911. However, I've have not been able to find an another source for the ceramic finishes. With regard to Tennifer (the glock finish) its the best I've ever personally experienced, but I'm told its not available in the U.S. due to environmental regulations related to its manufacture. I was told that Mrs. Carnack may be offering an exotic finish called "TiAIN" (Titanium Aluminum Nitride) and possibly Titanium Carbonitride. One of these finishes is dull grey and one is dull black. Reported rockwell hardnesses of 91-93 One of the sources of my information is: Kevin J. Reed
Ph: (248) 470-7366. Kevin emailed regarding this same question on a simular post last December and I believe he is a supplier for the TiAIN. Mrs Carnack please correct me if I am in error regarding any finishes you may offer. Also, if anyone knows if my information about the: Tennifer, Boron Carbide, or Diamond DLC needs to be updated please advise as I have an aluminum frame thats about to be sprayed and baked!!

My vote is for KG Gunkote.....in purple and gold. Yup, you're screwed now. Don't think I'll do it? Just wait and see.

I have tried three on your list and would go with Black-T again. The finish was applied more evenly and was more chip resistant by far than the others. All seem to prevent corrosion in the high wear areas after thinning.


Brian

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Brian

I'd heard way back that their was a black chrome, but that it had problems or wasn't quite perfected yet. Why isn't there a dark hard chrome? Any one know about this?

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God Bless
45Fundi

Accurate Plating and Weaponry offers it. Check this link. Adam, you might want to check into the Ceraguard finish.

http://www.apwcogan.com/black_chrome_plating.htm

They say that the Black Chrome finish is the 2nd hardest black finish there is. Does anyone know what Black finish is the 1st hardest finish?

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God Bless
45Fundi

I think they're referring to their own ceraguard.

The guys at APW e-mailed me this

Black Titanium Aluminum Nitride (TiAIN) ~92 HRc
Black Chrome 40 -45 rockwell c scale

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God Bless
45Fundi

Do they do that first finish?

The info I listed that they emailed is exactly all that the email said , so I don't know.

How hard is Hard Chrome on the Rockwell scale?

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God Bless
45Fundi

I've seen hard chrome listed anywhere from 72c to 78c depending on who does it. No matter, becuse that's pretty darned hard at that point.

There is a guy named Kevin Reed with a long thread over at the Pistolsmith website that is handling the Titanium Aluminum Nitride finish. He doesn't do it but he found someone that does and they are doing firearms and he handles the processing or something like that. Cost was around $450 to $500 or so. Too rich for my blood at this point. Maybe when they get it streamlined so it becomes less costly I will consider doing one.

There is a finish called Melonite which essentially is the same as tenifer (like Glocks) from what I have read. It requires heating the parts to over 1000 degrees which IMO would kill the heat treat of gun parts. They claim it's not a problem but I have read comments from engineers (mechanical or something I can't remember) that say it will damage the gun parts' strength.

I have a pic of the TiAlN on a 1911 somewhere. I will look around and post here if I can find it.

I'll see if my imagestation account will work for posting. If not I will upload them to my photobucket account and re-post. This pic is from Kevin Reed back when they started doing it on guns, I believe this was the first, at least from his associated vendor.

Maybe someone here knows but I read some place that the finish that is used on the Kahr's (IIRC it is called Tungsten DLC) is a very durable black finish. Somewhere between the spray on finishes and hard chrome.

Josh do you post on PS.com? Or is that another Denny?

Hi Badger,
I did an article last year for Combat Handguns that covered Kahr Arms Black Diamond finish. Their parts are coated by BodyCote-based in North Carolina. They use a process called Plasma Assisted Chemical Vapor Deposition. After the parts are bead blasted and ultra sonically cleaned they are packed into a vacuum chamber. Cathodes in the chamber turn Tungsten into a positively charged gas that accumulates onto the parts. About 2 microns (or 80 millionths of an inch) are deposited on the parts-far too little to affect fit or finish. The best part is that the steel is never exposed to temperatures over 300 degrees so the heat treat is not affected. Hardness measures 90 on the Rockwell C! It is the toughest finish that I have ever been exposed to was unable to scratch the finsih on the underside of the slide with a knife. This process has been used for years in the automotive and knife industries. Unfortunately, Body Cote has no desire to coat individuals guns. Hope this answers some questions for you!

Mike, I used Body Cote some when they first made themselves available for gun coating. Unfortunately, after the first gun (and their subsequent move to Greensboro), things went to hell. They missed coating some parts, they lost some parts, and etc. I decided to quit using them before they told me "no mas" business. I did just find out about a company in Calif. called Crystallume that does the same type of finishes, such as Tin, TiCn, and etc. One of my customers who works for a knife outfit told me of them, and I was told that the owner is a knife guy who bought the company. I haven't used them so far, but they have a website at http://www.robbjack.com.

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Don Williams
http://www.theactionworks.com
http://www.ltwguns.com

I'll add to the choice's & confusion. I work in the automotive aftermarket and this company, http://www.hpcoatings.com/
HPC (High Performance Coating) is well known for their ceramic header coatings. They also do Solid Dry Film coatings to internal engine parts to reduce friction, like piston skirts. I came to find out they do a weapons coating version of their SDF.
http://www.hpcoatings.com/engineering/weapons.pdf
I've had them do several HK slides and barrels including just the inside of a stainless slide. Here is a picture of a P220 I had them do. They are an FFL and do lots of work directly with LE & FED units. They don't have a gunsmith so you have to send everything dissasembled.

Fast turn around and about 125.00 for a pistol.

Have Blue,

How durable is that finish. It looks nice but will it look nice after several hundred draws?

I have a pistol that was finished in boron carbide, by Bodycote, very early in their gun finishing period. I've been shooting the gun for over three years, and it is holding up well. It appears to be almost impervious to wear, except when it rubs against itself. The slide/frame rails, disconnector rail, and other places where two coated surfaces rub, show bare metal. There's almost literally not a mark anywhere on the exterior, where you'd normally find holster wear, etc. on a blued gun.
My understanding of tenifer, is that it is a metal treament, not a finish, and not the "black" you see on the exterior of a Glock. The black exterior finish is described as "oxide". Bluing is oxide.

It's very durable, it's designed for internal engine parts. It will wear on the sharp edges from a holster over time but less than a blued gun. I put several thousand rounds through this gun with zero oil. A freind of mine had them do his Kimber frame beacuse he had to re-teflon it every 2 years, the SDF has been on his gun for 4 years and it still looks new.

My clients who have had there guns finished and refinished have told me over the years the best results seem to be from the current Armortuff from Wilson and Armorcoat from Tripp. Clients have indicated the service of the finish, service from the coaters all have been above par.

I have seen the rest of the finishes and there is really little difference. All of the name brand companys with finishes will serve well.

_________________
Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters

Do your research but you get what you pay for front end or back end
http://www.pt-partners.com
@ptpartners_tx

Something about the durability of the finish after holstering. Email me off line and I will send you pictures of rubbing the metal plated finish off of a gun after holstering after a few years. I carry this one every day in an off duty and in a balistic vest as a back up.

Keep in mind these are tools and if I jammed you in a holster a couple of thousand times no matter how tough you are what are you going to look like. But I have yet to see corrosion on one where the coating has rubbed off but have seen and experienced corrosion on plated finishes.

Just do not have unrealistic expectations from a coating or plating

_________________
Be safe and keep the brass flying

Terry Peters

Do your research but you get what you pay for front end or back end
http://www.pt-partners.com
@ptpartners_tx