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 Post subject: Opinions on sights .....
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2007 8:14 pm 
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Would be used on a home defense gun,so I'm thinking of going with fiber optic. I'm not thrilled with the small white outlines on tritium sights in daylight. Do they work well in low light as long as there's some ambient light available? I have Surefires all over the house so that shouldn't be a problem. I also remember reading somewhere that two white dots in the rear sight combined with a tritium dot up front works pretty well. Maybe a plain black rear and a fiber optic front?
Any input is greatly appreciated.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 9:22 am 
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My thoughts on night/low-light sights changes now and then. But the following is based on where I am today.
Also, keep in mind that eyes differ. What works for me may not for you. At classes with night shoots, I'm often amazed at the people who are eagle-eyes during the day find their eyes do weird things at night. Often they are surprised to learn it also. Don't decide anything, or eliminate any possibility, until you've shot your gun in all lighting conditions. Strange things happen.

That said, here are my OPINIONS...

-I'll bring it up once, then leave it alone- The most important thing to me is to keep a light handy. I know you said you have them around, but I'd try to keep one on your person.
Learn to use it in several flashlight "holds"- I haven't seen a single hold yet that will do everything.
Having a light and knowing how to use it several ways can give you more advantage than any night sight.

-The white rings around tritium inserts show up OK, but I wouldn't call them eye-catching (at least to my eyes).

-If it's dark enough, you can see the tritium; if it isn't, you can see the black sight.

-It has to be pretty dark before plain black sights are too hard to see.

-There is a big overlap where you can see both. Most of my practice is done in the woods behind the house, and in I can often see the tritium glowing if it's a late in the day or a little cloudy. I'm still using the black sight long after that point.

-I'm not as nuts over tritium as I used to be.
I never liked the fact that many times, the point of impact was different depending on whether I aligned the tritium dots or the tops of the sights. I don't need to keep track of two zeroes.
I think they give me a too-cluttered sight picture. Too many things to look at, with black sight, tritium dot, white ring, and sometimes a little glare from the tritium's vial.
Then, after taking some classes with a night shoot portion, I'm not sure how often they are even needed. I was surprised at how visible plain black sights are, even without using a light. If there was any light at all, be it a little excess light from a shooter's flashlight several positions down the line or just a little glow from the moon, I could use my black sights. I've shot these with black sights and tritiums and can't say tritium made it much easier (if any). If it was THAT dark, the tritiums were somewhat of a drawback, since they glowed so much they were a big distracting green blob.
(I later colored over the dots with a green marker, so they glow just enough to see in the dark, rather than in dim light. If your gun is used primarily in a house, where it can be a lot darker than outdoors, you might consider doing that.)

As a result of the above, I've gone from thinking tritium sights were a requirement to thinking they were a nice bonus at best.

In fact, when I had a Browning HiPower customized by Yost-Bonitz "just the way I wanted", I didn't get tritium sights. I did something different...

I got their gold line front sight. It is like a standard black serrated sight, but with a gold bar inset vertically. When it's light, or when held against a light background, the black sight shows up. When it's dim light, or held against a dark background, the gold shows up.
It gives me a mch cleaners ight picture. I won't lose my night sight if the gun is dropped, breaking the tritium capsule (I've done it). It also has the same point of impact regardless of whether I'm concentrating on the black part or gold part of the front sight.

I always have a couple of lights on me also, although having them doesn't guarantee I will have the chance to use them.

Fiber optic sights always seemed a little fragile to me. I have a shotgun that came with a fiber optic front and it had been fine, but I'm leery of them on a handgun that gets carried all the time. They get bumped a lot- maybe more than we notice- and I'd worry about damage.

One fiber optic that has looked interesting, but I know very little about, is the TruGlo (I think that's the name). They have fiber optic inserts, plus a tritum capsule that "lights" the fiber optic tubes in low light. My experience with them is limited to sighting over someone else's gun that was equipped with them. They may be garbage, or they may be a Godsend, I don't know.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:16 pm 
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I have to agree with Barry on several things. I too used to think tritium sights were a requirement, but after several years of police work and using them in a variety of situations, I have begun to change my inclinations also. They are a nice addition, and do work, but I also found things got a little "busy" when the baloon went up and trying to concentrate on my surroundings, a suspect or suspects, (where did that daggone flashlight go?), and my sights which also became a big blob (so much for a crisp sight picture!).
After using Tritium for several years, I have instead grown VERY fond of some of the current Gold Beads/Lines offered by several smiths. Thanks to our late member Witherspoon, I was introduced to them. He had several pistols with various Gold Beads and Gold Line front sights by makers Dave Sams, Don Williams, and Ted Yost to name a few. Upon trying these in a variety of environs, I found that the Gold Bead works best for me (as long as an extremely precise shot is not necessary) and the bead actually jumps out at you if ANY ambient light is available! The Gold Line such as the one from YoBo would be a close second for me.
Probably the most important thing as Barry mentioned, is to practice, practice, practice...in a variety of situations and environments!! Learn what works for you and in what situations (DO NOT COUNT on having the light! It is a nice luxury and certainly learn how to shoot with one but dont count on having it when you need it! Murphy is a BITCH!!). Best of luck to you and I apologize for getting so long winded! :roll:

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 5:37 pm 
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I agree with what Barry and JR said and would like to suggest that you consider using a sight with Novak LoMount dovetail dimensions for both front and rear. You may not find your ideal set of sights on the first try. My initially installing sights with Novak cuts, you'll still be able to swap around and try other makers sights, as almost everyone makes a sight to fit Novak cuts. Good luck!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2007 8:24 pm 
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Guess I need to get to the range and practice sight alignment with a little more dedication. Maybe I've become too dependent on those little white dots and would be better served by some work with plain black sights. Though I'm "on the backside of thirty",my vision is one of the few things that hasn't failed me yet.
The gold line or bead front sounds interesting,I just wasn't sure how well it would stand out in low light.
And Mr. Harrison,Novak cuts will definitely be something I ask for when I get around to sprucing up my Springfield.
Thanks again guys...............


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 11:50 am 
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I too am dealing with the effects of aging eyes and have found (for me) a simple sight picture with a wider rear notch to be the better option.

My complaint about night sights stems more from the legal issues of a justified self defense shooting than personal taste. If it is so dark that I need trinium inserts to see my sights 18" in front of my face, I am going to have issues positively identifying my target.
I want to know what or who I am getting ready to destroy before I do something that critical. If the attacker is close enough to me in the dark that I can ID them as someone other than a family member, I wont be using my sights anyway.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 12:22 pm 
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Location: Athens, AL, USA
I have been messing with sights for the last ten years or so as my eyes have aged none too gracefully and learned the following. It may not work for anyone else, but it works for me.

1) I cannot use tritium front sights as my shots with lots of ambient light impact in a different spot that when I use the tritium front sight insert. Same as Barry mentioned. When I can see the front sight (not the tritium insert), I use it. For some reason, I do not have this issue with red fiber-optic inserts but I do with green.

2) Changing prescriptions can sometimes mean changing POI relative to POA. This is a tough one for me as I have two sets of prescriptions, and every time I get a new set of glasses, I need to see where the bullets land on the target. Sometimes the change in POA is measured in inches. Not good. I have also seen differences in shooting outdoors and shooting in indoor ranges.

3) I do the best with a serrated black post and a relatively narrow notch in the rear. I do not work well with lots of light around the front sight. I tend to lose or blur the front sight in a wide notch. The BoMar bullseye sight picture works well for me, and I am faster and more accurate with it than I am with "combat" sights. The BoMar reputation for being fragile has not proved out for me. I just dropped off my Series '70 with a BoMar rear for a sight replacement with John. I whacked the gun on something and dinged the blade, but the zero did not move. I would have had to replace a fixed rear with the same ding. That BoMar is plenty tough.

4) I learned to try a lot of guns to see what works for me and what does not. I learned that my eyes do not handle a "busy" rear sight like the Novak. Too many focal planes makes it hard for my eyes to pick out the front sight.

5) Eye fatigue plays a huge role in my sight picture. Some days, usually after I spent hours in front of a monitor doing a PCB layout, I just cannot get that front sight in focus. Muscle memory helps me to align the gun. Lots of draws from leather while watching TV (with a triple-checked empty gun) is good practice for me.

6) At night, a flashlight is a must for me to identify the target. I keep several near by as the batteries seem to die at the worst possible time. Practice with the flashlight is mandatory for me.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 1:38 pm 
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Quote:
4) I learned to try a lot of guns to see what works for me and what does not. I learned that my eyes do not handle a "busy" rear sight like the Novak. Too many focal planes makes it hard for my eyes to pick out the front sight.
You mean there is someone else besides me who thinks that?

People think I'm nuts when I change out Novaks. That shadow box scooping/sculpting thing on the back around the notch may help somebody, but they just distract me. It draws my eye to the rear sight. All those curves being so close to where I'm looking for the front sight tends to draw my focus OUT of the notch and onto the rear sight face.
A flat serrated rear sight face works a lot better for me.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 3:56 pm 
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I use to be a died in the wool Henie Straight Eight guy, but have gone to a Trijicon front and Yost (plain black) rear sight on my carry gun.

The reason is that in low light I will either have a Surefire (EDC an A2) with me or will be point shooting in which case the front tritium helps me index (subconsciously) the gun in the half-hip or other PS positions.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Jun 23, 2007 5:13 pm 
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Location: Athens, AL, USA
Quote:
You mean there is someone else besides me who thinks that?
Oh yeah, there are a few of us. Chuck Rogers has a very nice modification to the Novak rear that I have seen in pictures that appears to eliminate my issue with the Novak being too busy. So there are at least three people who find the Novak rear to be less than optimal.

I linked to a pistol Mr. Rogers posted in this post: http://louderthanwords.us/forum/viewtop ... ight=novak

Image

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 11:31 am 
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Yes, that looks like it would help me a lot.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 12:53 pm 
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Some very good replies in this thread. Allow me to add some emphasis and input:

Good lights aren't cheap (generally). Good lights aren't good if you can't get to them. My working guns have dedicated lights, there are three Surefires in my nightstand, a Streamlight XT on charger at the base of the nighstand, and that days pants, complete with knife, Gladius, and essential goodies ready to go. The point is that lights are good for target ID, and you should always be able to ID your target.

I hate three dot sights. Always have. I am cross eye dominant, and learned years ago that horizontal alignment just doesn't work for me. I like single tritium, preferably with outline, bar-dot, or XS/Ashley dot the i, types. Fast, accurate, and simple. A sight system should aid in drawing your focus to the front sight. If it does not, it isn't the right system for you.

Fiber opics on a fighting gun? Not worth a full line of this post.

Get some formal night training. You'll learn a lot about your limitations, and how lack of light amplifies them. You'll probably rethink your ammo choices. Take your time and find what works for you. And always opt for a Novak cut--it is the default cut, and can be fit with most of the best sight systems currently available.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 24, 2007 10:29 pm 
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Damian
God Bless You, I'm curse-eye dominant also. Do you shoot dominant hand/dominant eye or just close tight your dominant eye and use your submissive eye?

I'm trying to figure out if I'm gonna keep shooting right hand/left-eyed or shoot right hand/right eyed (bad idea I think) or just learn to shoot lefthanded. Confusing isn't it!

If I'm hijacking the thread sorry, but us curse-eye dominant afflicted ones are to be pitied :roll:

My strait 8 styled custom Novak sights are great in absolute darkness, but the tritium white outline dissolved the first week I had it (solvent I guess) because you can't serrate tritium "white outlined" front blades I have a shiny (to me) front blade I loathe & no white outline and difficulty seeing the black sight which always seems to shine the same as the target I'm aiming at. So, my sights are only consistant in absolute darkness for the first shot. I will most likely be going to a serrated front with gold bead and be more disciplined about having a light handy on my next build. I wish Tru-Glo would sell there systems to custom gunsmiths to install in the sights of our choosing. (if they work as advertised)

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 5:54 am 
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Quote:
Damian
God Bless You, I'm curse-eye dominant also. Do you shoot dominant hand/dominant eye or just close tight your dominant eye and use your submissive eye?

I'm trying to figure out if I'm gonna keep shooting right hand/left-eyed or shoot right hand/right eyed (bad idea I think) or just learn to shoot lefthanded. Confusing isn't it!

If I'm hijacking the thread sorry, but us curse-eye dominant afflicted ones are to be pitied :roll: .....
Just in case you are not aware of it, Paris Theodore of ASP fame developed a system of shooting where, among other principles, the left eye was used by right hand dominant shooters to sight-in the target. It was called the Quell System and the sighting-in part was based on how that part of the brain that interacted with the left eye handled stressful situations. Myth or fact, don't know, but if fact, you may be one of the lucky ones! I couldn't give it a good try, because I have a "lazy" left eye.

HTH
John


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:04 pm 
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to all you guys. I am also right handed/left eye dominant. Maybe 35 years of baseball and golf caused that,who knows? I've found that I'm a better shooter with my dominant eye,I just have to turn my head a little more to line up the dots. I suppose it looks kinda funny,but it works well enough.
If I could find a front sight with a tritium insert and a slim fiber optic ring around that? Or maybe I should only buy shotguns?
Ah,to hell with it,I'm gonna go with the gold line up front.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 25, 2007 9:12 pm 
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I've studied this alot. I'm alos dyslexic and have a long list of reading disorders I can't pronounce (or spell ;) ) and the eye specialist who diagnosed all this told me he could change me to right eye dominant but it would take about 2 years. Also eye dominance isn't really eye dominance, but brain hemisphere dominance, your dominant eye for some reason is often of lesser optical quality than your submissive eye. So, if you managed to function with a forced/contrived right eye dominant due to using a very bright front sight and tape over left eye (true dominant eye) you are putting yourself at a disadvantage in that you are processing your visual info thru your lesser brain hemisphere that your brain was not meant to work that way. So, you would most likely problem solve much slower or with higher odds of mistakes. I'm obviously no expert but have to think about it alot.

shotgun right eye/left closed
duty rifle old days with irons right eye/left closed
still photography left eye
cinematic photography right eye
baseball switch hitter
draw ambidexterous
write right hand
left leg dominant ski, surf, soccer, bike
duty rifle today with Aimpoint both eyes and its change my world

but I still can't figure out the handgun thing where I think I've got it worked out. I want both eyes open looking thru the center of my glasses.
(I'm seeing an orthopedic hand surgeon next week and the decision might be made for me)

Good Luck!

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 4:30 am 
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Location: Richmond, Va.
Hi guys,

What do you think of this sight combo,

A Ashley Express small Dot with a really wide notch heine, novak or Yost
rear sight.

I think it might be the best of both worlds, anyone ever try this?

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 6:40 am 
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http://www.louderthanwords.us/forum/vie ... guy+sights

:D

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2007 12:44 pm 
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Location: Richmond, Va.
Chuck - Nice

I will be in contact. :D

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